00:00.000 --> 00:21.280 Okay. 00:21.280 --> 00:23.340 Hello, everyone. 00:23.340 --> 00:24.840 We are back in session. 00:24.840 --> 00:29.520 It is 2023 and we have two more sessions to go. 00:29.520 --> 00:38.080 I am excited to be doing today's session on off-chain or physical objects or claims that 00:38.080 --> 00:45.480 are linked to NFTs with the very, very well-known G-Money, who is not just one of the great 00:45.480 --> 00:53.920 collectors of the space and he is a business builder in the space and has done a lot of 00:53.920 --> 00:55.640 interesting physical objects. 00:55.640 --> 00:58.920 So, first of all, welcome to the course, sir. 00:58.920 --> 01:00.680 Well, thank you for having me. 01:00.680 --> 01:05.040 It's a pleasure to be on and it's definitely an honor. 01:05.040 --> 01:11.960 So what we're going to do today is kind of a mix of a presentation and a discussion. 01:11.960 --> 01:20.160 I'd like to go, VT, through a few background slides to make sure everyone gets up there. 01:20.160 --> 01:26.040 Make sure everyone is on the same page in terms of the concepts. 01:26.040 --> 01:33.080 Then we'll work through some examples and then, since we have the founder of a, actually, 01:33.080 --> 01:42.240 one of our example slides, dig into detail like why it was done this way, what's the 01:42.240 --> 01:45.440 opportunity or what does this look like over time. 01:45.440 --> 01:47.360 And so we'll go that way. 01:47.360 --> 01:54.560 And at any point, G-Money, if I'm off-base on something or I didn't say something that 01:54.560 --> 01:58.600 you think should be out of just jumping even during the slides. 01:58.600 --> 02:00.600 Okay, great. 02:00.600 --> 02:01.600 Okay. 02:01.600 --> 02:06.680 Did I have control of the slides? 02:06.680 --> 02:11.920 I don't seem to have control of the slides. 02:11.920 --> 02:13.880 Huh. 02:13.880 --> 02:15.720 I do. 02:15.720 --> 02:26.760 I don't seem to be able to switch the slide. 02:26.760 --> 02:35.640 I think you might have control of the slides, I think. 02:35.640 --> 02:37.640 02:37.640 --> 02:38.640 02:38.640 --> 02:41.640 02:41.640 --> 02:43.640 02:43.640 --> 02:44.640 02:44.640 --> 02:45.640 All right. 02:45.640 --> 02:57.320 So the session of the course we titled it Off-chain Objects. 02:57.320 --> 03:00.200 And then I thought to myself, is that right? 03:00.200 --> 03:02.360 I mean, it's sort of, it is, of course, right. 03:02.360 --> 03:07.160 But I was also playing around with a couple of other words, physical objects, right? 03:07.160 --> 03:14.880 Because there's some things that are off-chain but digital, like, you know, are we right, PFS? 03:14.880 --> 03:16.720 That is true for a lot of NFTs. 03:16.720 --> 03:20.800 But I think that's something different than what we're discussing here. 03:20.800 --> 03:25.320 And then I was wondering even if the word objects was correct. 03:25.320 --> 03:30.320 And I think it's not, or it's partially correct, but it's not fully comprehensive. 03:30.320 --> 03:36.000 I think the right word is claims because we could be representing things that are not 03:36.000 --> 03:40.240 an object, but for example, could be an experience. 03:40.240 --> 03:48.240 If you have an NFT that represents a ticket to a concert or a night in a hotel room, it's 03:48.240 --> 03:49.240 not an object. 03:49.240 --> 03:51.320 You know, you haven't gotten the concert hall. 03:51.320 --> 03:54.360 But it is a claim in the physical world. 03:54.360 --> 04:02.040 And I think for the purpose of this session, that's my mental framework that we're talking 04:02.040 --> 04:07.400 about, you know, the other 11 sessions of the course we're talking about natively digital 04:07.400 --> 04:09.400 assets all the way through. 04:09.400 --> 04:14.560 This is the session where we're talking about physical matters. 04:14.560 --> 04:20.920 And physical in this case claims, which I think this is the right model. 04:20.920 --> 04:25.920 Now what type of things could they represent? 04:25.920 --> 04:33.720 And this is in no way an exhaustive list, exhaustive list is everything in the world. 04:33.720 --> 04:37.880 So I'm not going to start writing down every single thing in the world. 04:37.880 --> 04:40.800 But evident crypto a long time. 04:40.800 --> 04:48.560 And this idea of representing physical objects with crypto tokens predates NFTs. 04:48.560 --> 04:51.920 We've been talking about this for many, many years. 04:51.920 --> 04:56.720 A lot of people tried to do it with fungible tokens, they turned it with colored coins. 04:56.720 --> 05:01.480 And the areas that people typically start with the ones that I've heard over and over 05:01.480 --> 05:08.040 and over again, are no particular order real estate, clothing, precious stones or gold or 05:08.040 --> 05:09.040 what have you. 05:09.040 --> 05:10.040 It's where people start, right? 05:10.040 --> 05:15.600 Because I think these are things that might have sufficient value that people think about 05:15.600 --> 05:22.720 them and they're easy enough to make the mental leap. 05:22.720 --> 05:27.160 Maybe someday are washing machine will be represented by NFT, but it's a harder mental 05:27.160 --> 05:30.120 leap to see how that works, right? 05:30.120 --> 05:37.600 So and then the claim may not just be ownership, right? 05:37.600 --> 05:39.400 Could be ownership. 05:39.400 --> 05:46.040 Could be that if you own this NFT, you own this physical object, do that. 05:46.040 --> 05:48.000 It could be rental. 05:48.000 --> 05:55.520 If you own the NFT, you have access to this car or holiday home for this week. 05:55.520 --> 05:58.320 It could be access. 05:58.320 --> 06:02.560 If you own the NFT, you can come to this country club. 06:02.560 --> 06:09.240 If you own the NFT, you can go to this concert. 06:09.240 --> 06:13.520 If you own the NFT, you can have dinner once a week with dream money. 06:13.520 --> 06:17.360 It's a physical claim, right? 06:17.360 --> 06:24.280 Redemption, which in all it's kind of similar to ownership, but I split it because I think 06:24.280 --> 06:26.520 it's a different implementation form. 06:26.520 --> 06:32.920 So there's people who say, well, you own the NFT and the NFT and the physical note together. 06:32.920 --> 06:38.080 And as long as you own an NFT and you can redeem the NFT for the physical and the NFT 06:38.080 --> 06:39.280 goes away, right? 06:39.280 --> 06:42.400 And so the first is almost like a gift voucher. 06:42.400 --> 06:43.400 It's not a good one. 06:43.400 --> 06:46.040 It's kind of like a gift voucher for a physical object. 06:46.040 --> 06:51.600 Whereas the redemption model is whereas the ownership model and they go together and they're 06:51.600 --> 06:52.600 permanently together. 06:52.600 --> 06:55.200 The NFT never gets burnt. 06:55.200 --> 06:58.120 And you no longer have the physical object. 06:58.120 --> 07:00.000 You send the NFT to the next person. 07:00.000 --> 07:03.720 So the NFT and the physical object always live together. 07:03.720 --> 07:11.200 And then there's this, I was thinking about it, but it also exists in the art NFT world 07:11.200 --> 07:15.520 with some people have made blended or hybrid objects. 07:15.520 --> 07:21.080 I am absolutely not going to write the word digital in the presentation. 07:21.080 --> 07:29.320 But we bought a few of them recently and it's a beautiful NFT, but it also comes with a physical 07:29.320 --> 07:31.680 painting in a frame. 07:31.680 --> 07:40.520 And those are meant to be a unified piece of artwork, the NFT and the physical object 07:40.520 --> 07:41.520 that comes with the art. 07:41.520 --> 07:48.720 I'm sure there are other examples than what I mentioned here, but I think this is the 07:48.720 --> 07:50.360 80%, 90% correct. 07:50.360 --> 07:53.800 I think we're going to think about it. 07:53.800 --> 07:55.960 I think you'd add here, G-money?. 07:55.960 --> 08:02.520 Yeah, I think to add one thing that I want to be immediately, the things that I thought 08:02.520 --> 08:07.520 of immediately as to what is an NFT that people can conceptualize really well is a mortgage. 08:07.520 --> 08:10.960 And to your point is like that's a claim. 08:10.960 --> 08:17.200 And it helps people understand to the point you made earlier that pretty much everything 08:17.200 --> 08:19.120 in the real world is an NFT. 08:19.120 --> 08:21.480 We just don't call them NFTs. 08:21.480 --> 08:26.120 Yeah, yeah, yeah, all correct. 08:26.120 --> 08:36.920 That we have that we work with abstracted claims on physical objects is absolutely true. 08:36.920 --> 08:43.320 For me, the one that I think users to describe to people is title deeds for real estate, 08:43.320 --> 08:44.320 right? 08:44.320 --> 08:46.400 You never transact the real estate itself. 08:46.400 --> 08:49.480 You transact a piece of paper. 08:49.480 --> 08:55.000 When you buy a house, you're not, even if you're buying a piece of land on a mountainside, 08:55.000 --> 09:00.680 the land doesn't know anything's changed, right? 09:00.680 --> 09:03.600 Maybe there's a fence, maybe there's a lot of fence, but nothing has changed the moment 09:03.600 --> 09:06.040 you buy it from someone. 09:06.040 --> 09:12.000 What has changed is we've shuffled around a piece of paper in someone's office. 09:12.000 --> 09:20.680 And then when we have accepted as a social construction that the person who has access 09:20.680 --> 09:26.720 to do things with that land is the person whose name and the county registrar's office, 09:26.720 --> 09:31.760 right, where the land registry in places where it's more centralized. 09:31.760 --> 09:38.640 And it is no more, but no less abstracted than how NFTs work, right? 09:38.640 --> 09:42.000 And because a lot of people say, oh, but NFTs are just making it up. 09:42.000 --> 09:47.040 There's no real linkage between NFT and there's no real linkage between the title deed and 09:47.040 --> 09:48.040 your land. 09:48.040 --> 09:50.600 The linkage is a social construction. 09:50.600 --> 09:58.120 And in the case of land, a set of laws and regulations that say, well, if I have this, 09:58.120 --> 09:59.240 I'm allowed to be here. 09:59.240 --> 10:02.800 And if G-money comes into my field, I can ask him to leave. 10:02.800 --> 10:06.800 And if he does, I can call him the power of the state to get him out of here, right? 10:06.800 --> 10:08.800 But the physical land doesn't know anything about this. 10:08.800 --> 10:09.800 It's just a piece of land, right? 10:09.800 --> 10:13.240 The thing that matters is the piece of paper in the office. 10:13.240 --> 10:19.520 And so I think one way to think about it is we're talking about replacing that piece 10:19.520 --> 10:25.200 of paper that is sitting in someone's filing cabinet or now on some databases where they 10:25.200 --> 10:28.400 publicly visible, transactable, composable, talking. 10:28.400 --> 10:29.400 All right. 10:29.400 --> 10:34.920 Let's go to the expansion. 10:34.920 --> 10:40.720 Now, physical claims do require a trusted counterparty, right? 10:40.720 --> 10:47.320 And this is the major difference from the rest of digitally native tokens. 10:47.320 --> 10:50.400 By the way, this is the way all society works, right? 10:50.400 --> 10:52.680 So this isn't a negative statement. 10:52.680 --> 10:56.280 This is the way how everything else in society works. 10:56.280 --> 11:03.680 But it's important that this is a really important topic because I've seen many white papers 11:03.680 --> 11:09.640 and presentations over the years that either don't understand this or like pretend not 11:09.640 --> 11:13.440 to understand this, but it's important and it's different. 11:13.440 --> 11:21.240 If I have a art blocks token in my wallet, okay, I have it in my wallet. 11:21.240 --> 11:24.200 I don't need any third party, right? 11:24.200 --> 11:27.120 And there, I mean, the code is on chain. 11:27.120 --> 11:29.040 Like literally everything is in my wallet. 11:29.040 --> 11:34.040 I can send it to you, you can send it back to me. 11:34.040 --> 11:40.920 At no point do we need to request someone to do something in order to own the art. 11:40.920 --> 11:50.960 Now, when we bought this hero piece in an auction, well, they transferred the token, 11:50.960 --> 11:56.760 but then also now they have to ship the physical part. 11:56.760 --> 12:02.880 And so I have to trust that the seller, in this case, I trust them as an auction house, 12:02.880 --> 12:08.240 but like that the seller is capable of like packing it up correctly and mailing it to 12:08.240 --> 12:13.480 the right place and getting appropriate insurance and not breaking it and, you know, all of 12:13.480 --> 12:15.880 these things right there, the counterparty. 12:15.880 --> 12:21.160 And if we ever send it somewhere else, we have to do the same thing, right? 12:21.160 --> 12:25.880 There's sudden the counterparty in that case was the auction house was the seller. 12:25.880 --> 12:30.640 And generally, you can think about the counterparty. 12:30.640 --> 12:32.280 I think it's these three categories. 12:32.280 --> 12:34.640 Maybe there's a fourth that I missed. 12:34.640 --> 12:39.280 The most obvious one is the issuer of the claim, right? 12:39.280 --> 12:47.040 If 90cc says, I'm going, if you own this NFT, you get this piece of clothing. 12:47.040 --> 12:51.960 Well, the most obvious counterparty is the firm is going to say, I've showed up, I've 12:51.960 --> 12:55.840 redeemed the NFT, I've burned the NFT, I want my t-shirt, right? 12:55.840 --> 13:01.600 And so we have to trust that the t-shirts are there and you're well organized firm and 13:01.600 --> 13:04.920 you haven't lost them and you'll send them to the right place and all of these things, 13:04.920 --> 13:05.920 right? 13:05.920 --> 13:06.920 And the same thing is true. 13:06.920 --> 13:12.920 But this is our day to day life in the whole world, like when you booked a room at Marriott, 13:12.920 --> 13:19.520 you're trusting the issuer of that claim that, you know, the Marriott on Canal Street is 13:19.520 --> 13:20.920 in fact there and operating. 13:20.920 --> 13:25.720 And when you show up and you say, like, here's my reservation from booking.com, and there's 13:25.720 --> 13:33.400 a yes, Mr. 6'5", tonight, you have room 272 and the room's clean and it's available, 13:33.400 --> 13:35.240 there's not someone else in it, right? 13:35.240 --> 13:41.320 You're taking on a variety of counterparty risks that, as a general rule, married is 13:41.320 --> 13:46.040 very good at if they rent your room for a night, they will deliver the room for the 13:46.040 --> 13:47.040 rent you. 13:47.040 --> 13:49.880 No, and sometimes they must have the new book and the same person, right? 13:49.880 --> 13:52.560 There's a little bit of counterparty risk, there's not zero. 13:52.560 --> 13:58.680 But within boundaries that society operates, right, it operates more or less okay. 13:58.680 --> 14:00.080 That's one model, right? 14:00.080 --> 14:04.520 The issuer is the counterparty. 14:04.520 --> 14:09.160 Another model that you see, and some of these startups, we mentioned here, operate as well, 14:09.160 --> 14:10.160 there's a centralized custodian. 14:10.160 --> 14:18.320 And you're going to say, look, we're going to have, we're going to have gold bars as NFTs 14:18.320 --> 14:22.680 and diamonds as NFTs, and how do I know the diamonds really there? 14:22.680 --> 14:27.600 How do I trust that the person sends me the diamond that I bought? 14:27.600 --> 14:34.720 Well, me, the centralized firm that's operating this NFT, the product or marketplace, says, 14:34.720 --> 14:42.760 look, I have a big vault and all the diamonds are there and you guys can trade the NFTs 14:42.760 --> 14:45.680 and the diamonds are not going over, it's always here, right? 14:45.680 --> 14:50.240 It's always right here, and you can always come and then redeem it and claim it and get 14:50.240 --> 14:51.240 the diamond. 14:51.240 --> 14:59.840 And so you don't have to trust every single seller if they're going to deliver, right? 14:59.840 --> 15:03.280 You just need to trust the custodian, in fact, the diamonds are there. 15:03.280 --> 15:06.280 And this is how all financial markets work, right? 15:06.280 --> 15:12.640 I mean, when you're buying and selling shares of stock, they're held in a custodian, it 15:12.640 --> 15:16.520 changes, the shares never move just in reporting of who owns them. 15:16.520 --> 15:21.040 This is how literally the US stock market's working, it's a centralized custodian. 15:21.040 --> 15:28.840 And then there's one interesting idea I saw here and I'm sure we'll see more of this, 15:28.840 --> 15:32.760 where they're trying to build a network of decentralized custodians, right? 15:32.760 --> 15:37.720 So there was that one custodian, there's multiple custodians in an operate, like a node in the 15:37.720 --> 15:42.480 network and say, oh, I'm storing this physical object here. 15:42.480 --> 15:47.840 And I was trying to think if there's like a fourth version of this was not obvious to 15:47.840 --> 15:53.160 me what it would be, and the issuer of custodian or network of custodians. 15:53.160 --> 15:55.960 Have you seen another model on this? 15:55.960 --> 15:59.200 No, I think that's pretty comprehensive. 15:59.200 --> 16:04.320 When I was going through this framework, like, I was pretty much the same. 16:04.320 --> 16:10.000 And I very much felt like there would be a need very soon of having these centralized 16:10.000 --> 16:15.840 custodians within crypto because to your point, it exists today, right? 16:15.840 --> 16:20.600 I mean, if you were to look up what a free port is, it's a centralized custodian where 16:20.600 --> 16:24.800 exactly to your model that you said with real estate is the same type of transaction that 16:24.800 --> 16:27.880 happens with art already. 16:27.880 --> 16:29.320 Yep. 16:29.320 --> 16:35.520 And then what does the counterparty have to do? 16:35.520 --> 16:41.080 Well, the counterparty has to make sure the claim is executed. 16:41.080 --> 16:44.920 That the authenticity is matchbook on both sides, right? 16:44.920 --> 16:48.680 Like, they've got to manage both sides of authenticity. 16:48.680 --> 16:52.640 That the concert is actually happening, right? 16:52.640 --> 16:54.600 And Taylor Swift will be there. 16:54.600 --> 17:00.600 But also that the claim ticket you've come with is the right one because if they recognize 17:00.600 --> 17:03.960 the wrong one, then two people are going to be fighting for that seat, right? 17:03.960 --> 17:11.680 So that's a managed, the authenticity of the product or service and of the claim ticket. 17:11.680 --> 17:15.760 And then, you know, general quality assurance, which is everything from, you know, it's not 17:15.760 --> 17:19.360 broken and it's there and has a lost your soul order. 17:19.360 --> 17:21.360 Your bed hasn't been made. 17:21.360 --> 17:23.600 I mean, it's an endless topic. 17:23.600 --> 17:26.320 Quality assurance could mean anything. 17:26.320 --> 17:36.240 And basically you're trusting the counterparty to deliver what is what has been bought through 17:36.240 --> 17:37.240 that NFT. 17:37.240 --> 17:38.240 Okay. 17:38.240 --> 17:42.240 Let's go to the next slide. 17:42.240 --> 17:51.640 Now this to me is a very big point because I've had this discussion with many people over 17:51.640 --> 18:00.200 the last two years and they say, okay, this is fine, but why do you need NFTs for this? 18:00.200 --> 18:05.520 You have all types of databases that do this now. 18:05.520 --> 18:15.600 If you go to Expedia or booking.com, you can go and buy a claim on a hotel room in New 18:15.600 --> 18:19.240 York on January 23rd. 18:19.240 --> 18:22.240 And it works fine. 18:22.240 --> 18:23.240 It's just a database. 18:23.240 --> 18:29.240 You don't need all the aggravation of crypto and wallets and gas and Ethereum and all the 18:29.240 --> 18:30.240 stuff. 18:30.240 --> 18:31.240 Right. 18:31.240 --> 18:36.320 And it sounds at first glance like a good question. 18:36.320 --> 18:39.640 And but it's actually not a very good question. 18:39.640 --> 18:40.640 It sounds like a very good question. 18:40.640 --> 18:42.640 It sounds like a whole gosh, right. 18:42.640 --> 18:45.000 We don't need to do this. 18:45.000 --> 18:50.920 And the reason the big opportunity is too full. 18:50.920 --> 18:53.480 How does it work when you go to booking.com? 18:53.480 --> 19:00.680 Well, each each hotel has its own reservation system, right? 19:00.680 --> 19:06.640 And they allocate different groups to different other systems. 19:06.640 --> 19:07.640 Right. 19:07.640 --> 19:12.000 They might say, I'm holding these 10 back because I'm going to do something for my conference 19:12.000 --> 19:13.000 or whatever. 19:13.000 --> 19:17.000 Booking.com can book these whatever, 100 groups. 19:17.000 --> 19:19.320 I'm simplifying this. 19:19.320 --> 19:26.360 And then you buy it on primary on primary. 19:26.360 --> 19:27.360 It works. 19:27.360 --> 19:28.360 Okay. 19:28.360 --> 19:30.520 But you still don't see the full order book, right? 19:30.520 --> 19:33.520 You see what you're seeing in a certain marketplace. 19:33.520 --> 19:38.160 It's like content management systems before the Internet. 19:38.160 --> 19:42.960 If you went to someone's content management system, you see the content there, but there 19:42.960 --> 19:47.200 might be content or in this case inventory in a different system. 19:47.200 --> 19:49.400 And you won't see that inventory. 19:49.400 --> 19:50.400 Right. 19:50.400 --> 19:52.840 So one, relatively smaller pieces. 19:52.840 --> 20:06.160 Well, if the inventory is just represented as an NFT, the platforms might compete on UX 20:06.160 --> 20:11.440 or UI, but you'll see all of the inventory anywhere. 20:11.440 --> 20:15.240 You could go directly and see all the inventory on a generic platform. 20:15.240 --> 20:16.880 It opens your ether scan or whatever. 20:16.880 --> 20:18.680 You could always go see the inventory. 20:18.680 --> 20:20.240 But that's not the big idea. 20:20.240 --> 20:25.160 The big idea is you develop a secondary market. 20:25.160 --> 20:29.280 And so what do I mean by this? 20:29.280 --> 20:39.560 Let's say it's January 23rd and I need to be New York and it's time sensitive and I haven't 20:39.560 --> 20:42.280 booked my hotel. 20:42.280 --> 20:43.280 Right. 20:43.280 --> 20:44.280 And I don't know. 20:44.280 --> 20:49.640 There's a conference happening and you go and see, oh gosh, it's all sold out or this. 20:49.640 --> 20:51.280 I mean, New York never really sells up. 20:51.280 --> 20:56.200 But the approximate is all sold out or there's only these five options instead of the 100 20:56.200 --> 20:57.200 options. 20:57.200 --> 21:01.400 Is that really true at all? 21:01.400 --> 21:09.960 Is it really true that I cannot get a room that I am not the highest possible bidder 21:09.960 --> 21:11.920 for at least one of the other rooms? 21:11.920 --> 21:16.480 You almost recognize it's in fact, not true at all. 21:16.480 --> 21:21.720 In fact, that night in New York, there will be some couple from Massachusetts that booked 21:21.720 --> 21:27.400 the room six months ago and paid 200 bucks for it and they don't have a time sensitive 21:27.400 --> 21:30.000 reason that they want to be in New York. 21:30.000 --> 21:36.040 And if I could find that couple and say, hey, would you like 400 bucks and I'll take your 21:36.040 --> 21:38.160 room at the 23rd and you can come back any other day. 21:38.160 --> 21:39.160 You're not 10 cents. 21:39.160 --> 21:40.160 We're just here on holiday. 21:40.160 --> 21:47.640 You're an elderly couple and would you prefer to come back next week and also put $200 in 21:47.640 --> 21:48.640 your pocket? 21:48.640 --> 21:50.720 And ask me, oh, yes, that sounds very good. 21:50.720 --> 21:54.880 Like they win and I win. 21:54.880 --> 21:56.960 But there's no way to do that now, right? 21:56.960 --> 22:04.520 Because the secondary, the claims once they're issued are fragmented. 22:04.520 --> 22:05.520 They're missing. 22:05.520 --> 22:11.320 There's no easy way to trade a digital good for currency. 22:11.320 --> 22:13.600 Trustlessly, we know how this works, right? 22:13.600 --> 22:15.880 There's all point of crypto. 22:15.880 --> 22:23.280 And so if you imagined instead that every room for every night and every hotel in New 22:23.280 --> 22:29.240 York was represented by an NFT and think about how opens he works today, right? 22:29.240 --> 22:34.320 The interface would be a little bit different, but conceptually, you go there and go on the 22:34.320 --> 22:46.360 page on a New York City and say January 23rd, hotels four and five star, midtown and below. 22:46.360 --> 22:53.240 I'm putting a collection wide bid of $400. 22:53.240 --> 22:57.160 I'm pretty certain in that world, which is always a way, right? 22:57.160 --> 23:04.440 In that world, that bid would hit instantly even on a night that most hotels are supposed 23:04.440 --> 23:07.640 to sold out, right? 23:07.640 --> 23:13.360 And what this means is you can actually create secondary markets and everything. 23:13.360 --> 23:17.760 And here we're going to have an intellectual discussion with somebody who's like, oh, I 23:17.760 --> 23:19.960 don't like markets. 23:19.960 --> 23:21.800 Why does everything have to be markets? 23:21.800 --> 23:27.080 The point is in a capital economy, everything's ready markets. 23:27.080 --> 23:35.320 This just makes the markets more correct, more efficient. 23:35.320 --> 23:41.400 If you help people make a voluntary trade that they couldn't have made previously, you've 23:41.400 --> 23:43.040 increased the utility in the world. 23:43.040 --> 23:45.840 You haven't decreased them. 23:45.840 --> 23:50.560 Now that, and then you can do all types of, I mean, wild things, right? 23:50.560 --> 23:56.920 You will have people arming hotel nights, right? 23:56.920 --> 23:58.760 As well, that sounds bad. 23:58.760 --> 24:05.000 But sometimes the size of hotels, market prices will come into line. 24:05.000 --> 24:13.200 I was thinking about this during COVID when some governments were like paying hotels preemptively 24:13.200 --> 24:16.320 to book some rights in the future to keep them alive. 24:16.320 --> 24:24.080 I'm saying, no, this would make more sense that the hotels could sell those claims cheaply. 24:24.080 --> 24:29.680 And someone else could take on the risk that the lockdown ends and they can sell them more 24:29.680 --> 24:32.000 expensive, right? 24:32.000 --> 24:38.120 The hotels needed some minimal amount of cash at point X to lockdown to not go bankrupt. 24:38.120 --> 24:42.960 And they had these future claims that nobody's booking because nobody knows what the lockdown 24:42.960 --> 24:43.960 is ending. 24:43.960 --> 24:47.120 But some financial industry will take that risk at some price. 24:47.120 --> 24:50.080 There's some prices that I know I don't know what the locals are doing right in. 24:50.080 --> 24:58.440 I'll buy the hotel room now for $30 and hope to resell it for $130. 24:58.440 --> 25:00.840 And that happens to some degree with travel agents. 25:00.840 --> 25:11.880 But again, just like NFTs, what they're doing to the fine art market, right, is democratizing. 25:11.880 --> 25:17.920 If you wanted to buy, if you wanted to buy a key pairing, you basically have to walk into 25:17.920 --> 25:22.120 one of X places in the world, what's the price? 25:22.120 --> 25:23.120 physically. 25:23.120 --> 25:31.160 If you want to buy a ringer, you just need an internet connection. 25:31.160 --> 25:37.480 And there's no specific extra advantage you have if you're a fancy institutional investor, 25:37.480 --> 25:45.960 if you're an art expert, if you are just a random person, you have the same first class 25:45.960 --> 25:51.360 access to the distribution rails for fine art. 25:51.360 --> 25:54.560 For everyone in the world instantaneously, it's amazing. 25:54.560 --> 25:55.560 Also true for artists. 25:55.560 --> 25:59.160 I mean, I mean, I'm an obvious institutional artist. 25:59.160 --> 26:01.640 Distribution rails can't fix them, right? 26:01.640 --> 26:08.760 But the fact that you, brand new artists, you can be an 18 year old in India, and you 26:08.760 --> 26:12.520 will have the same distribution rails as Tyler Hobbs says. 26:12.520 --> 26:14.920 Not the same branding, not the same promotion, that's different, right? 26:14.920 --> 26:17.400 Not the same reputation, that's also different. 26:17.400 --> 26:21.000 But before you didn't even have the distribution rails, right, you would have that 18 year 26:21.000 --> 26:27.720 old kid in Andobot couldn't get into the gallery in London or in Soho or in Miami or 26:27.720 --> 26:28.720 Switzerland. 26:28.720 --> 26:32.400 Right, but here they have the same rules. 26:32.400 --> 26:38.920 And this model is now extensible once this happens, once this happens, to everything, 26:38.920 --> 26:41.760 not just art, everything. 26:41.760 --> 26:50.560 Everyone can have the same ability to buy, sell, trade, claims in the physical world, 26:50.560 --> 26:55.360 instantly, globally with an air connection. 26:55.360 --> 27:00.560 Arguably this, someday, will be a bigger deal of a native initial. 27:00.560 --> 27:06.080 Quite a way in the future, I'll come back in a second, but arguably will be bigger because 27:06.080 --> 27:11.960 this can represent everything, including the whole physical based economy, which is the 27:11.960 --> 27:17.120 vast majority of the largest asset class in the space, in the world, by a lot, is real 27:17.120 --> 27:19.120 estate, right? 27:19.120 --> 27:26.000 So actually, in real estate, can come and owner or rented, and I'm just being renting 27:26.000 --> 27:29.360 an apartment, hotels or rental, rental, right? 27:29.360 --> 27:42.520 So once we can make efficient markets, if it sounds weird in the hotel space, think 27:42.520 --> 27:45.680 about it for the real estate space. 27:45.680 --> 27:52.560 Real estate is extremely sticky, a liquid high transaction cost, right? 27:52.560 --> 28:02.720 Imagine if every apartment in Miami, you could put a bid, ask for, etc, and like, hey, 28:02.720 --> 28:07.520 I need liquidity, I need to get out of my apartment now, right? 28:07.520 --> 28:09.640 I need to be out now. 28:09.640 --> 28:11.040 You put a low ask, right? 28:11.040 --> 28:14.280 You put a low, by now price. 28:14.280 --> 28:19.720 That will get sniped in a way that it won't happen in the current system, right? 28:19.720 --> 28:27.800 And so, bringing markets, including secondary markets to all the world's physical goods 28:27.800 --> 28:33.520 and services, is another one of these, like, give you huge ideas. 28:33.520 --> 28:42.600 But unlike the native visual here, VT, let's go to the next slide, there are challenges. 28:42.600 --> 28:52.040 The reason NFTs took off first in native visual, the reason Fedenzas took off, is because Fedenzas 28:52.040 --> 28:58.760 didn't need permission from anyone to mint the token and put the code in the token. 28:58.760 --> 29:04.280 And that, to take the simple example, is not truly real estate. 29:04.280 --> 29:12.880 A binding sale of real estate has a bunch of semi-now arcade paperwork that needs that. 29:12.880 --> 29:18.880 And if you don't do that paperwork, you haven't actually bought the real estate. 29:18.880 --> 29:27.280 And so, I cannot just spin up an NFT collection, say, hey, this NFT represents my house. 29:27.280 --> 29:31.680 And if you buy the NFT, you now own my house, because you could go then go to the 29:31.680 --> 29:35.960 title office and still going to have my name on it. 29:35.960 --> 29:40.040 And for the title office to accept that the new owner has bought it, they're going to 29:40.040 --> 29:42.440 want to see it as it varies by country. 29:42.440 --> 29:46.680 But in many countries, it requires a physical signature, right? 29:46.680 --> 29:48.360 And witnesses and all these things, right? 29:48.360 --> 29:50.480 So, understandably, that house is important. 29:50.480 --> 29:53.640 People don't want to lose their house for bad transaction. 29:53.640 --> 30:03.240 And so, there's in many cases, a regulatory bridge is one of the things that keeps saying, 30:03.240 --> 30:04.240 that needs to come in place. 30:04.240 --> 30:09.200 Well, that coming place tomorrow for real estate is Congress working on allowing us 30:09.200 --> 30:13.080 to trade NFTs representing houses now. 30:13.080 --> 30:21.040 They're currently complaining if they want to shut down crypto or whatever wild ideas 30:21.040 --> 30:22.040 they get, right? 30:22.040 --> 30:23.040 But will this happen? 30:23.040 --> 30:26.560 And yes, it will happen for the same reason that these signatures happen, right? 30:26.560 --> 30:31.040 Eventually, we will be able to represent claims digitally. 30:31.040 --> 30:36.400 They will be legally binding, and that will take care of the first bucket. 30:36.400 --> 30:42.680 The second and third bucket are kind of the same, but, well, I separate them as follows. 30:42.680 --> 30:46.200 And I'm going to ask too many about this. 30:46.200 --> 30:52.880 Like, you know, how do I know the shirt that I own is the same shirt as the NFT, right? 30:52.880 --> 30:55.400 How do you actually make that linkage? 30:55.400 --> 31:01.320 The third is the counterpart of stuff, like how is it actually, how is the physical delivery, 31:01.320 --> 31:03.480 the physical execution happen? 31:03.480 --> 31:08.480 And generally, because of these things, the space is still quite immature. 31:08.480 --> 31:12.240 I don't know what percent of the NFT market represents. 31:12.240 --> 31:15.720 NFT is the physical component, but it's pretty small. 31:15.720 --> 31:18.000 And the NFT market itself is very immature. 31:18.000 --> 31:22.960 The NFT market is maybe a $10 billion market cap. 31:22.960 --> 31:27.160 It's like, I don't know, 1% of crypto and crypto is still a very immature asset class, right? 31:27.160 --> 31:33.680 So this is the immature end of the immature end of a fairly immature asset class. 31:33.680 --> 31:41.880 But this also has the opposite perspective that this is why there's potentially a big 31:41.880 --> 31:42.880 opportunity. 31:42.880 --> 31:49.000 Once things are mature and working and they've spent decades, we in society have spent decades 31:49.000 --> 31:53.680 getting them to work in a boring manner, there's usually less fewer business opportunities 31:53.680 --> 31:56.280 because it's now quite efficient. 31:56.280 --> 32:00.640 So anything you'd say here? 32:00.640 --> 32:03.120 I think that this is pretty spot on. 32:03.120 --> 32:07.440 You know, I've been experiencing a lot of these firsthand, right? 32:07.440 --> 32:13.320 I think when you talk about legal frameworks of, first off, you have governments trying 32:13.320 --> 32:16.200 to wrap their head around NFTs. 32:16.200 --> 32:22.000 And now, as I think, my thesis is that NFTs will be coming into the real world and that 32:22.000 --> 32:24.280 this tech will be coming into the real world. 32:24.280 --> 32:27.840 And you do have to deal with the issues that you have highlighted here, right? 32:27.840 --> 32:33.320 It's like, how do you associate the physical with the digital? 32:33.320 --> 32:35.760 How do you handle shipping, insurance, damages? 32:35.760 --> 32:37.520 How do you prove authenticity? 32:37.520 --> 32:42.560 To me, these are all things that the space will have to deal with heads on, right? 32:42.560 --> 32:47.960 And really deal with archaic laws that already exist, right? 32:47.960 --> 32:52.600 And how you kind of retrofit that and create a framework for going forward, which I think 32:52.600 --> 32:54.160 will be really interesting. 32:54.160 --> 32:58.280 And to your point is where this is where a lot of the opportunity lies, right? 32:58.280 --> 33:04.760 Because once people figure this out and once people understand exactly how these things 33:04.760 --> 33:08.520 will be handled going forward, then a lot of those opportunities will then be gone by 33:08.520 --> 33:09.520 them. 33:09.520 --> 33:10.520 Agreed. 33:10.520 --> 33:15.880 Let's see the next slide, VT. 33:15.880 --> 33:19.000 So this is a slide I use a lot. 33:19.000 --> 33:22.760 And it's very conceptual, right? 33:22.760 --> 33:25.880 Like there's not actual dates in there. 33:25.880 --> 33:30.280 All the things on the left are the things that could be done natively digital or intangible 33:30.280 --> 33:31.280 assets. 33:31.280 --> 33:37.920 And intangible assets are big categories, post to $80 trillion category. 33:37.920 --> 33:42.240 And all types of things can be in there and those can happen, I think, faster because 33:42.240 --> 33:46.200 you don't have to solve these bridges in the physical world. 33:46.200 --> 33:51.080 And then abstracted physical or tangible assets, which are services and goods. 33:51.080 --> 33:53.440 I think services like come even faster than goods. 33:53.440 --> 33:58.240 It's going to be less of a regulatory hurdle to sell a tailor-subtricate ticket than sell 33:58.240 --> 34:00.360 your house, right? 34:00.360 --> 34:06.160 And then ultimately, ultimately, the ultimate claim is governance in the physical world. 34:06.160 --> 34:07.960 I think that will come too. 34:07.960 --> 34:12.840 Now, I think we will see more of the ladder of the physical stuff in the second half 34:12.840 --> 34:18.040 of the decade and digital as obviously started now and will continue. 34:18.040 --> 34:21.000 It doesn't mean we have to wait until 2025. 34:21.000 --> 34:24.400 This is, we have people like G-money and he doing it today. 34:24.400 --> 34:31.800 But because of these specific topics that need to be solved, it will take longer to ramp 34:31.800 --> 34:32.800 up. 34:32.800 --> 34:38.400 So, I think these are my general topics. 34:38.400 --> 34:45.400 Let's go to 9DCC, which I think is a couple of slides forward. 34:45.400 --> 34:51.360 And before we get into any sophisticated thoughts, tell us what it is. 34:51.360 --> 34:59.400 Yeah, so at a really high level, 9DCC is a crypto-native luxury lifestyle brand. 34:59.400 --> 35:05.320 And the reason why I felt like that there was a need for it is when I was going around 35:05.320 --> 35:10.880 to conferences and I was going around and meeting people in real life, I quickly realized 35:10.880 --> 35:18.120 that the same way that I can signal that I'm a crypto-native with my crypto-punk, and 35:18.120 --> 35:24.720 that was my thesis for buying my ape when I did was this is a flex, this is a signal 35:24.720 --> 35:28.400 that I am sending to my peers in a digital world. 35:28.400 --> 35:34.320 Nothing like that existed to the way that I wanted it, in terms of an aesthetic that 35:34.320 --> 35:39.440 I wanted to wear, that I could signal to the real world that I'm a crypto-native and having 35:39.440 --> 35:45.840 the quality of product that I wanted to wear in terms of production. 35:45.840 --> 35:50.720 You know, just generally like things that I would wear, it just didn't exist. 35:50.720 --> 35:56.080 And so rather than wait for somebody else to go out and build it, I decided to do it 35:56.080 --> 35:58.840 on my own. 35:58.840 --> 36:01.800 So let me put it back in my words. 36:01.800 --> 36:08.840 Obviously there's all types of quote unquote flexes in the physical world in terms of existing 36:08.840 --> 36:16.800 physical products, but you from an aesthetic or messaging perspective, they're not crypto-native, 36:16.800 --> 36:17.800 right? 36:17.800 --> 36:21.320 Like there's existing luxury brands are not crypto-native. 36:21.320 --> 36:25.800 So yeah, so I felt like that there was this kind of like if you had like these two subsets, 36:25.800 --> 36:26.800 right? 36:26.800 --> 36:32.240 It's like, you know, you could, I could walk into a Dior store and I could buy a shirt 36:32.240 --> 36:34.360 off the rack and I could wear that out. 36:34.360 --> 36:37.760 And that would obviously be of the quality that I wanted. 36:37.760 --> 36:40.560 But that wouldn't signal that I was a crypto native. 36:40.560 --> 36:44.120 And on the opposite end of the spectrum, I feel like there was a lot of product from 36:44.120 --> 36:48.320 the crypto world that, okay, I can signal that I'm a crypto native with it, but it wasn't 36:48.320 --> 36:53.240 necessarily the quality or the community that I would necessarily want to be a part of. 36:53.240 --> 36:58.080 And so I feel like there will be this growing intersection of the overlap of those two communities 36:58.080 --> 36:59.080 over time. 36:59.080 --> 37:09.200 I'm going to take a step back here because you very famously were one of the first people, 37:09.200 --> 37:16.680 maybe the first person to pay an awful lot of money for a crypto book for your ape. 37:16.680 --> 37:24.920 And I think that kind of snowballed the big rally in crypto punks. 37:24.920 --> 37:29.480 Tell us a little bit about the logic because you said it was like that logic. 37:29.480 --> 37:31.200 So let's tell the group that logic. 37:31.200 --> 37:33.400 How do this all start? 37:33.400 --> 37:34.400 Yeah. 37:34.400 --> 37:43.440 So, you know, I, when I found NFTs, it was August of 2020, and they like almost immediately 37:43.440 --> 37:47.520 made sense to me because I started playing Fortnite at the beginning of quarantine. 37:47.520 --> 37:49.960 And that was back in March of 2020. 37:49.960 --> 37:54.240 And when I was playing with all these kids, you know, teenagers, the first thing that they 37:54.240 --> 37:57.240 would ask me is, you know, what skins did you buy? 37:57.240 --> 38:00.040 And skins that they don't give you any special powers. 38:00.040 --> 38:03.400 The only thing they do is change how you look while you play that game. 38:03.400 --> 38:07.400 And these kids would be changing their skins every, you know, 10 to 20 minutes, depending 38:07.400 --> 38:09.240 on how long the game was. 38:09.240 --> 38:13.760 And I was, I said to myself, like, there's this massive super cycle here where that kid 38:13.760 --> 38:18.680 is 12 years old today, 10 years from now, he'll be 22 and he'll have his own disposable 38:18.680 --> 38:22.720 income and he'll be totally okay with owning a purely digital asset. 38:22.720 --> 38:29.320 Now at the time, I had no idea what NFTs were, but it was an idea that stuck with me. 38:29.320 --> 38:34.600 And when I found NFTs, I was like, wow, this is your skin on Twitter, right? 38:34.600 --> 38:40.520 Like this is literally, you know, the same way that if I got a limited edition skin that 38:40.520 --> 38:44.720 now trades on eBay at a premium, this type of thing would happen. 38:44.720 --> 38:50.360 And to your point is, there is a secondary marketplace that exists for, you know, the 38:50.360 --> 38:53.880 value of this thing to be found on in a free market. 38:53.880 --> 38:58.400 And so I started delving down the crypto rabbit hole, the NFT rabbit hole, because I was already 38:58.400 --> 39:00.080 in crypto. 39:00.080 --> 39:07.800 And I saw crypto punks and I think the floor was maybe around $1,000 at the time, but 39:07.800 --> 39:09.160 I said, oh, these are too expensive. 39:09.160 --> 39:11.800 I want to find the next crypto punks. 39:11.800 --> 39:17.960 And I ended up minting a bunch of chromisquiggles and, you know, Snowfro and a few other OGs 39:17.960 --> 39:20.320 where, you know, they told me, what are you doing? 39:20.320 --> 39:22.280 Like, you know, you should be buying a crypto punk. 39:22.280 --> 39:27.480 You should buy a zombie or what, you know, or something like a big, a rare one, a super 39:27.480 --> 39:28.480 rare one. 39:28.480 --> 39:31.960 And, you know, I started spending some time really researching it. 39:31.960 --> 39:38.720 And that's kind of where I developed my thesis, which is my, my pin tweet in my Twitter, 39:38.720 --> 39:43.360 where, you know, humans are, you know, social creatures, right? 39:43.360 --> 39:48.680 And even though the technology of how we interact with each other will change, but the one 39:48.680 --> 39:54.160 thing that doesn't change is, you know, the way we signal to each other, the way we interact 39:54.160 --> 39:55.160 with each other. 39:55.160 --> 40:01.440 And like a really simple example that I always use is, you know, if we were to meet for dinner 40:01.440 --> 40:07.760 6529 and we were to sit down and I were to show you my bank account, like that, like, 40:07.760 --> 40:09.560 that would be weird, right? 40:09.560 --> 40:12.760 That's just not how humans like interact with each other. 40:12.760 --> 40:18.880 But I could almost send a very similar signal by wearing a nice watch, by driving a nice 40:18.880 --> 40:23.600 car, by wearing nice clothes that, oh, you know, you don't know exactly how much is my 40:23.600 --> 40:24.840 bank account. 40:24.840 --> 40:29.920 But judging by the nature of the things that I am wearing or consuming, you can have a 40:29.920 --> 40:35.840 good idea of like, oh, if this person is doing X, then, you know, it probably signals Y. 40:35.840 --> 40:39.400 And that's just the way humans operate because that's, you know, that and that's been since 40:39.400 --> 40:40.400 the dawn of time. 40:40.400 --> 40:42.040 And it's not just humans, right? 40:42.040 --> 40:48.040 It is other animals that do certain things or have certain behavior patterns. 40:48.040 --> 40:52.640 That is, let's say, for mating or for social hierarchy within their groups. 40:52.640 --> 40:58.960 And so my thesis very quickly became that, okay, the same way that me wearing a Rolex 40:58.960 --> 41:04.400 to a nice dinner allows me to send a signal in that smaller group. 41:04.400 --> 41:10.320 Me spending a certain amount of money that's verifiable on chain for a picture also sends 41:10.320 --> 41:15.280 that signal of one, you know, what part of the community am I a part of? 41:15.280 --> 41:21.200 But then two is also it's a verifiable signal that has a ton of scale, right? 41:21.200 --> 41:26.880 So when I drive a Lamborghini through my neighborhood, then maybe only like 10 to 50 people see 41:26.880 --> 41:28.160 it that day. 41:28.160 --> 41:32.760 But if I buy something that's worth the same amount as that Lamborghini and I make it my 41:32.760 --> 41:38.040 profile picture, then that scales to thousands, if not millions of people with the same, with 41:38.040 --> 41:39.480 the same exact outlay. 41:39.480 --> 41:44.760 And so that was like my original thesis for CryptoPunks and the APE. 41:44.760 --> 41:50.120 And you know, it just, it was, to me, it's like it's signaled after spending, you know, 41:50.120 --> 41:54.360 some time in the space in the NFT space, it's signaled what I thought would be maybe the 41:54.360 --> 41:59.080 most crypto native OG community in the NFT space. 41:59.080 --> 42:03.200 And so for that reason, people would want to be associated over time and it would hold 42:03.200 --> 42:08.920 that provenance and it would hold that upper echelon within the community, even, you know, 42:08.920 --> 42:11.920 through in into bear markets and bull markets. 42:11.920 --> 42:12.920 Got it. 42:12.920 --> 42:19.440 And then I think a big part of that turned out to be turned out to be right. 42:19.440 --> 42:28.520 And then you're now saying, okay, when I'm interacting with my crypto community in real 42:28.520 --> 42:32.840 life, how to represent these same things. 42:32.840 --> 42:38.360 And that's a lot of, let me ask you, you're saying, is this somehow different? 42:38.360 --> 42:42.560 And how is it different that you say, well, look, I'm making nice clothes. 42:42.560 --> 42:45.080 What's different about that? 42:45.080 --> 42:46.920 I think that there are a few things. 42:46.920 --> 42:51.280 I think one is I'm integrating the technology into it, right? 42:51.280 --> 42:53.720 But also it's like, you know, what does it stand for? 42:53.720 --> 42:54.720 Right? 42:54.720 --> 43:00.500 Because like I said, there is no, like I could wear a Bored APE, eight on my shirt, but that's 43:00.500 --> 43:03.680 just generally not an aesthetic that I would want to wear. 43:03.680 --> 43:08.680 And I think like for me, like the aesthetic that I created with 90 CC is something that 43:08.680 --> 43:10.160 I would be interested in wearing. 43:10.160 --> 43:12.200 I hope others would be interested in wearing. 43:12.200 --> 43:17.120 I think it's a level of quality of, you know, I've been to a lot of crypto conferences. 43:17.120 --> 43:19.800 I mean, people spend a lot of money on clothes. 43:19.800 --> 43:21.680 People spend a lot of money on how they look. 43:21.680 --> 43:26.160 And so, but the problem is is that there's no way to signal that you're a crypto native. 43:26.160 --> 43:29.680 So I think that that was, that was the first pillar that I wanted to solve. 43:29.680 --> 43:33.360 But then like where I think things get really interesting is, you know, kind of what's mentioned 43:33.360 --> 43:37.920 on this slide here is where, you know, you can have a certificate of authenticity that 43:37.920 --> 43:40.000 travels with the physical product, right? 43:40.000 --> 43:44.360 And when you look at watches, right, I think watches are a great example where if you buy 43:44.360 --> 43:49.760 a watch with paperwork, it's worth significantly more than a watch without paperwork, right? 43:49.760 --> 43:55.840 So, you know, there, there is a good, a good proof case that there is a significant amount 43:55.840 --> 43:59.600 of value placed on that certificate of authenticity. 43:59.600 --> 44:04.240 And the more interlinked that you can make that certificate of authenticity with the 44:04.240 --> 44:09.600 actual product, then the less risk there is of that thing being a fake, right? 44:09.600 --> 44:15.800 You know, secondhand goods, secondhand luxury goods is a massive business and it's growing. 44:15.800 --> 44:20.600 Like fake goods that are made is a massive business and it's still growing. 44:20.600 --> 44:24.720 And so all of these things that there's, there is a lot of need for this, but there isn't 44:24.720 --> 44:28.400 necessarily a solution out there that works at scale. 44:28.400 --> 44:32.520 Because when you want to make, if you were to buy a product secondhand, you need to take 44:32.520 --> 44:37.320 it to an expert that could still doesn't guarantee that it's actually real, right? 44:37.320 --> 44:42.660 Because every, each and every day, fakes are getting better and better in terms of quality. 44:42.660 --> 44:46.960 So that somebody that might have caught a fake, you know, three to five years ago might not 44:46.960 --> 44:48.800 be able to catch that fake today. 44:48.800 --> 44:53.840 So what better way than to have a certificate of authenticity that is provable on a decentralized 44:53.840 --> 44:58.800 ledger by just scanning the shirt instead of, let's say, having to increase that cost 44:58.800 --> 45:03.240 of transaction by having to go to an expert to verify that it's real. 45:03.240 --> 45:08.160 And even then that verification doesn't necessarily guarantee that it's real. 45:08.160 --> 45:11.640 So you said there's the tech. 45:11.640 --> 45:13.560 How does that work? 45:13.560 --> 45:15.160 So it's really simple. 45:15.160 --> 45:21.560 So on all of our iteration one and iteration two shirts, you can see in the patch where 45:21.560 --> 45:26.800 the nine is on both those shirts and those pictures, there's an NFT chip behind that 45:26.800 --> 45:29.960 patch, which you can then scan. 45:29.960 --> 45:36.400 And it takes you to a page that shows you the NFT that represents that shirt on the blockchain. 45:36.400 --> 45:40.760 And that it is held in that owner's wallet. 45:40.760 --> 45:43.800 So there's a little chip embedded in the shirt. 45:43.800 --> 45:44.800 Yeah. 45:44.800 --> 45:45.800 What? 45:45.800 --> 45:46.800 Yes. 45:46.800 --> 45:49.800 And you can longer it with a wash it. 45:49.800 --> 45:51.800 Yeah. 45:51.800 --> 46:03.240 And this and the NFT, if I go now and just buy one of these NFTs online. 46:03.240 --> 46:04.960 So where's the shirt? 46:04.960 --> 46:06.080 How do I get it? 46:06.080 --> 46:11.640 So the way we did the drop mechanic was we partnered with 4K, which is a centralized 46:11.640 --> 46:18.240 custodian, to your point that you were saying earlier, right, is what I found that, you know, 46:18.240 --> 46:22.200 when you take a look at, you know, sneaker culture and you take a look at the resale 46:22.200 --> 46:26.760 market, a lot of people will buy more than one product, right? 46:26.760 --> 46:32.960 So you'll buy like people always say, one to one to cop and one to one to rock and one 46:32.960 --> 46:34.040 to cop. 46:34.040 --> 46:39.960 And so what ends up happening is people will store a pair of sneakers in their closet 46:39.960 --> 46:41.560 and they will never wear them. 46:41.560 --> 46:45.880 And that stays stored in their closet until they dig the day they go to sell it. 46:45.880 --> 46:50.520 And so my thought process is if I'm only going to be storing it in my closet and the 46:50.520 --> 46:54.040 only time I'm going to touch it is when I actually go to sell it, there's technically 46:54.040 --> 46:56.000 no reason for me to take delivery. 46:56.000 --> 47:00.160 Much the same way that stocks work, right, is like you don't physically take delivery 47:00.160 --> 47:02.200 of the shares when you buy and sell it. 47:02.200 --> 47:08.400 You have a claim on those shares that is managed by a central database that will tell you that 47:08.400 --> 47:13.680 runs their own ledger that tells you you buy or you own or you buy or sell an asset. 47:13.680 --> 47:18.560 And so what we did is we partnered with 4K, so when we made all of the shirts, we delivered 47:18.560 --> 47:26.720 them to 4K and 4K then issued an NFT voucher which represents that T-shirt in their warehouse. 47:26.720 --> 47:30.280 And we can go around and you can trade that a thousand times. 47:30.280 --> 47:35.240 And then at any given point in time, whoever owns that voucher can then go to 4K and claim 47:35.240 --> 47:40.520 that shirt and get it delivered to them anywhere in the world within three to five days, which 47:40.520 --> 47:50.160 I think is an insanely amazing feat considering where we are with the resale of goods today 47:50.160 --> 47:56.400 where it happens on eBay, it happens on StockX, the cost of transactions is way higher because 47:56.400 --> 48:02.120 you have to verify things that might be in the condition that might not be in the condition 48:02.120 --> 48:07.400 that they're supposed to be in, but then also the length of time that it takes to verify 48:07.400 --> 48:14.480 that something is real, to get it sent from the seller, to the authenticator, to the buyer, 48:14.480 --> 48:16.240 just like there's a lot of friction there. 48:16.240 --> 48:21.420 And I feel like by placing these assets in a centralized custodian that to your point 48:21.420 --> 48:26.840 is can verify the condition that they're in and can verify delivery and that there's 48:26.840 --> 48:33.360 actually an actual physical product there, you then make the friction much lower, right? 48:33.360 --> 48:40.240 And you increase this ability for people to conduct commerce on a much global scale. 48:40.240 --> 48:50.640 And does 4K charge the, let's say I buy the NFT, now I have a claim on a shirt at 4K, 48:50.640 --> 48:53.080 do I have to pay annual storage? 48:53.080 --> 48:54.160 How does it work? 48:54.160 --> 49:00.080 So the way we work the first shop, the first shop has free lifetime storage, the second 49:00.080 --> 49:05.640 shop has free storage for two years, free storage and insurance for two years. 49:05.640 --> 49:10.880 And then afterwards, I believe the fee might be like around $2 a year, per shirt. 49:10.880 --> 49:17.440 I don't know the exact thoughts off my head, but it very much would work in terms of like 49:17.440 --> 49:23.640 if anybody sees, and this is like long term, but if anybody has seen storage wars where 49:23.640 --> 49:28.720 somebody were to default on like their storage fees at some point, then they obviously forfeit 49:28.720 --> 49:33.520 the asset that's held in the warehouse and then it would go to auction. 49:33.520 --> 49:34.520 Right. 49:34.520 --> 49:43.080 And then if, so I can trade and then the person who buys it knows the shirt bagging it, if 49:43.080 --> 49:50.640 I redeem the shirt, does my NFT change from like a mid pass NFT to a kind of ownership 49:50.640 --> 49:51.640 NFT? 49:51.640 --> 49:52.640 Yeah. 49:52.640 --> 49:57.760 So what ends up happening is when you claim the shirt, you burn your NFT, which is basically 49:57.760 --> 50:00.720 a bearer instrument for that shirt in their warehouse. 50:00.720 --> 50:02.400 They ship you the shirt. 50:02.400 --> 50:07.560 When you get this fit, when you get the physical shirt, you unpack it, you then scan the tag 50:07.560 --> 50:14.120 and then you can pull the NFT into your wallet, which acts as the certificate of authenticity. 50:14.120 --> 50:20.280 So like for me, like one of the things that I had a really tough time wrapping my head 50:20.280 --> 50:24.920 around and you know, when I when I met the team in IYK, it made the most sense to me 50:24.920 --> 50:30.040 where up until that point, all the solutions that I had seen linking the physical product 50:30.040 --> 50:35.840 to the digital NFT didn't scale because it works great on the primary sale, right? 50:35.840 --> 50:39.920 It works great if you are the first person to buy the product for me. 50:39.920 --> 50:42.880 I ship you the shirt and I ship you the NFT. 50:42.880 --> 50:46.680 But now what happens if you want to turn around and you want to sell it to somebody else, 50:46.680 --> 50:47.760 right? 50:47.760 --> 50:52.200 It doesn't scale because if you were to if you were to give them that shirt and somebody 50:52.200 --> 50:56.920 were to give you cash, then you need to go home and send them that NFT. 50:56.920 --> 51:01.520 Now as soon as you have that cash, you are no longer incentivized to send them that NFT. 51:01.520 --> 51:03.440 You'll get to it when you get to it. 51:03.440 --> 51:07.000 But by and that's a push mechanism, right? 51:07.000 --> 51:12.200 By using the pull mechanism, which IYK, you know, originally were the first people that 51:12.200 --> 51:13.440 spoke to me about it. 51:13.440 --> 51:17.360 I thought it was genius in the sense that whoever has physical possession of the shirt 51:17.360 --> 51:23.480 can then pull that NFT, that certificate of authenticity into their wallet. 51:23.480 --> 51:27.760 So you know, when they say possession is nine tenths of the law, you know, that that rings 51:27.760 --> 51:32.600 really true in the sense that yes, you have that physical certificate of authenticity 51:32.600 --> 51:38.480 that travels with the actual shirts so that in that interaction that I just told you about, 51:38.480 --> 51:42.080 then as soon as you get your money, then the transaction is over. 51:42.080 --> 51:47.880 That person can then pull that certificate of authenticity into their wallet whenever they 51:47.880 --> 51:48.880 want. 51:48.880 --> 51:54.560 So basically it's a custom contract that IYK runs. 51:54.560 --> 52:01.440 And if you scan the physical, whoever has access to the physical good can pull the virtual 52:01.440 --> 52:02.440 day. 52:02.440 --> 52:03.440 Yes. 52:03.440 --> 52:06.960 It's really interesting. 52:06.960 --> 52:13.360 And like the thing that I really liked about it was that it was just nobody else had really 52:13.360 --> 52:14.840 come up with that solution at the time. 52:14.840 --> 52:17.440 This was, you know, over a year ago at this point. 52:17.440 --> 52:21.120 And I was like, wow, that to me is something that's super scalable, right? 52:21.120 --> 52:26.440 That because again, going back to the watch example where, you know, you have, you can 52:26.440 --> 52:32.800 make an argument that the paperwork that certificate of authenticity is equally as valuable if 52:32.800 --> 52:37.520 not maybe more valuable than the actual watch itself, right? 52:37.520 --> 52:39.800 Because that's the proof that this is real. 52:39.800 --> 52:40.800 Right. 52:40.800 --> 52:54.520 And even though, and people can't, can they copy that? 52:54.520 --> 52:55.520 The NFT? 52:55.520 --> 52:58.640 The code is scanned. 52:58.640 --> 53:02.680 No, because the code is like it's locked into the chip. 53:02.680 --> 53:09.880 So, you know, if you like, if you wanted to, let's say, make a fake, right? 53:09.880 --> 53:14.880 It ultimately wouldn't have, you know, you wouldn't be able to claim the actual NFT fraud 53:14.880 --> 53:17.880 that originally comes from the 90 CC wallet. 53:17.880 --> 53:21.600 You know, when you talk about provenance and we obviously talk about this with artists all 53:21.600 --> 53:22.600 the time. 53:22.600 --> 53:27.560 And the reason why I named the brand 90 CC is that is the wallet that is the proof, the 53:27.560 --> 53:28.920 provenance, right? 53:28.920 --> 53:30.760 All our NFTs come from there. 53:30.760 --> 53:32.080 Come from that wallet. 53:32.080 --> 53:36.320 So then you can chain, you can, you can track that chain of history, right? 53:36.320 --> 53:40.480 Where it's like, it will come if you bought a shirt, you bought it from 90 CC. 53:40.480 --> 53:45.640 It goes from 90 CC's wallet to 6529's wallet to whoever other wallet who buys it there 53:45.640 --> 53:46.880 after you. 53:46.880 --> 53:48.840 And that to me becomes super important, right? 53:48.840 --> 53:53.240 So it's like, if somebody were to make a fake, they could, they can make a fake of everything, 53:53.240 --> 53:57.640 except for the actual NFT that can then be pulled into the wallet. 53:57.640 --> 54:01.960 So when you talk about, you know, verifying authenticity, all of a sudden, instead of 54:01.960 --> 54:06.760 having to go to an authenticator to make something as real, it literally just comes down to 54:06.760 --> 54:09.200 something as simple as a scam. 54:09.200 --> 54:11.400 Very interesting. 54:11.400 --> 54:12.400 Okay. 54:12.400 --> 54:17.760 So what, what have been the challenges? 54:17.760 --> 54:22.920 I'll say the challenges have been like dealing with the meat space, right? 54:22.920 --> 54:28.360 dealing with all the things that that you were talking about in terms of, you know, regulation, 54:28.360 --> 54:35.120 shipping, taxes, all these things that there isn't enough regulatory clarity around things 54:35.120 --> 54:36.280 yet. 54:36.280 --> 54:39.480 And we're trying to navigate things the best that we can. 54:39.480 --> 54:44.760 While also like, you know, trying to operate at the forefront of technology of, you know, 54:44.760 --> 54:50.480 a lot of this comes from these are things that I just want to see in the world as a consumer, 54:50.480 --> 54:51.480 right? 54:51.480 --> 54:56.840 If I'm spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on something that's expensive, 54:56.840 --> 55:01.800 I would like to know like, verifiably, how many of them exist, right? 55:01.800 --> 55:06.400 Like, I think this, this always happens, I think with a lot of the luxury goods markets 55:06.400 --> 55:10.040 is where people like, you know, you'll ask is like, how many of these exist? 55:10.040 --> 55:13.320 And they give you a number, but like, you can't necessarily verify that. 55:13.320 --> 55:17.080 Like, they could be over producing or under producing. 55:17.080 --> 55:23.240 And, you know, really relying on the customer's trust, but it's like, why shouldn't it exist 55:23.240 --> 55:27.920 in a way so that people understand exactly how many of them exist in the real world? 55:27.920 --> 55:30.600 Because that also affects long-term value as well, right? 55:30.600 --> 55:35.560 Of like, you know, like t-shirts are going to be naturally deflationary, right? 55:35.560 --> 55:38.680 In terms of, you know, there's wear and tear over time. 55:38.680 --> 55:40.560 There's as soon as you wear one, right? 55:40.560 --> 55:44.640 It's worth, it's worth a different amount than a brand new, never worn shirt. 55:44.640 --> 55:48.600 So I think that will affect, it's going to be really interesting to watch this play out 55:48.600 --> 55:49.720 long-term. 55:49.720 --> 55:55.360 But I'll say like a lot of the, a lot of the stuff has been in terms of delivering quickly, 55:55.360 --> 55:56.360 right? 55:56.360 --> 56:00.120 Having an idea where, you know, in a digital space, I can have an idea and I can execute 56:00.120 --> 56:04.680 it relatively quickly because there's no physical manufacturing component. 56:04.680 --> 56:09.160 But I think when you start getting into the manufacturing of things and the physicality 56:09.160 --> 56:12.920 of things, things start to get much more complicated, right? 56:12.920 --> 56:18.720 And so I'll use like our second drop, which was iteration two, which we did with Snowfro. 56:18.720 --> 56:21.080 It was the collaboration with Snowfro. 56:21.080 --> 56:22.800 It was in our Basel. 56:22.800 --> 56:29.120 And what we did was we made generative clothes on demand for, you know, five days at a pop-up. 56:29.120 --> 56:32.920 So people would come in, they didn't need to have crypto, they can come in, they could 56:32.920 --> 56:34.400 swipe a credit card. 56:34.400 --> 56:38.600 They would mint an NFT, which was a squiggle variant. 56:38.600 --> 56:44.520 So it was the same exact algorithm that Snowfro used to generate the chromiswiggle. 56:44.520 --> 56:48.680 But instead of a squiggly line output, it's a straight line output with the 90cc logo 56:48.680 --> 56:49.760 above. 56:49.760 --> 56:54.640 As soon as that got minted onto the blockchain, we then printed that onto a T-shirt. 56:54.640 --> 57:00.120 We then linked that NFT that the person just minted to the physical shirt so that it travels 57:00.120 --> 57:01.360 with the shirt. 57:01.360 --> 57:04.840 And then we boxed it up and handed it to the customer within 10 minutes. 57:04.840 --> 57:10.520 And so to me, the technical feed of that was amazing. 57:10.520 --> 57:16.240 The fact that we were able to pull that off, there was about 41 hours over the course of 57:16.240 --> 57:20.600 five days that we were up and we were only down for 12 minutes. 57:20.600 --> 57:27.080 And so the fact that we were able to do that, there's a lot of operational intricacies that 57:27.080 --> 57:28.280 end up going into that. 57:28.280 --> 57:34.800 But I think when I look into the future of the same way that we all want very personal 57:34.800 --> 57:40.400 lines, digital products to represent who we are, I think we, as the manufacturing process 57:40.400 --> 57:45.920 is catch up to the human imagination, we're going to start seeing a need and a desire 57:45.920 --> 57:52.480 for personalization, mass personalization within the physical space as well. 57:52.480 --> 57:58.920 So Snowfro was on the course earlier in the fall. 57:58.920 --> 58:01.600 And that's one of his big ideas also, right? 58:01.600 --> 58:08.000 We will see mass personalization, mass customization in physical goods as well. 58:08.000 --> 58:12.920 And it's one of the things he hopes to be working on with Artblocks. 58:12.920 --> 58:24.240 So logically, all kind of luxury brands at least are going to want to do something like 58:24.240 --> 58:25.240 what you're doing, right? 58:25.240 --> 58:32.320 And it improves their ability to say, this is the real one and someone else goes and 58:32.320 --> 58:34.520 buys it on Canal Street. 58:34.520 --> 58:37.000 It's not quite the same thing, right? 58:37.000 --> 58:38.000 Exactly. 58:38.000 --> 58:44.640 And I think one, you know, that from low hanging fruit is that certificate of authenticity. 58:44.640 --> 58:50.520 But then also to the point you just made is, you know, mass customization of, you know, 58:50.520 --> 58:55.160 how cool would it be if, you know, you walk into a Louis Vuitton store. 58:55.160 --> 59:00.000 You pick out your favorite purse and you get that personalized more so than just maybe 59:00.000 --> 59:02.160 having like your initials monogrammed on it, right? 59:02.160 --> 59:07.120 You can have like your favorite prints or your favorite artist or, you know, whatever 59:07.120 --> 59:09.640 have you kind of be printed onto it. 59:09.640 --> 59:13.120 And so you get that element of personalization. 59:13.120 --> 59:14.640 And I think that that's where the world is headed. 59:14.640 --> 59:19.920 I think just at this moment, again, we're just held back by the manufacturing process 59:19.920 --> 59:24.600 of how you can do something like this at scale because over the last, you know, hundreds 59:24.600 --> 59:29.720 of 150 years, you know, it's been the exact opposite where it's like, how do you get the 59:29.720 --> 59:34.240 lowest price product of making, you know, a hundred million of the same things for the 59:34.240 --> 59:35.240 lowest cost? 59:35.240 --> 59:39.320 Now, I think we're going to be running into the problem of trying to figure out how do 59:39.320 --> 59:44.520 you make a hundred million unique individual things for the lowest cost? 59:44.520 --> 59:55.680 And is there a way, and I'm not saying today, but somehow that the authenticity would be 59:55.680 --> 00:00.720 visible in the physical world, obviously not going to go around scanning people's, I mean, 00:00.720 --> 00:05.120 be weird if I came and grabbed your tag and like, I had to scan your edit of seat ship, 00:05.120 --> 00:06.120 right? 00:06.120 --> 00:10.600 But like, is there a way where that does sort of happen in like AR or something? 00:10.600 --> 00:14.200 I mean, I could see that possibly happening with AR, right? 00:14.200 --> 00:20.840 So in a world where we're all wearing like Google or Apple glasses, or AR glasses, where 00:20.840 --> 00:25.840 you know, it could say, you know, like verified real almost like, think of it maybe like a 00:25.840 --> 00:28.800 verified collection on OpenSea, right? 00:28.800 --> 00:34.000 And I don't know like the exact capabilities of what that tech would look like, but I could 00:34.000 --> 00:37.240 definitely see a world where that ends up happening. 00:37.240 --> 00:43.760 And you know, like, I think it will lower the amount of fakes out there, right? 00:43.760 --> 00:48.600 Because there's that like social and public shame of people, if people find out that, 00:48.600 --> 00:53.680 you know, you have a fake Rolex or whatever it is, I think it's going to be interesting 00:53.680 --> 00:56.160 to watch the dynamic play out in real time. 00:56.160 --> 00:59.480 But I do, I do foresee a world where that can happen. 00:59.480 --> 01:09.560 I mean, if there was some world where it's the same world where if you are demonstrating 01:09.560 --> 01:12.200 what's in your wallet, right? 01:12.200 --> 01:19.560 If you can, the same world where you can show that you own your punk in the physical world 01:19.560 --> 01:24.480 is the same world you can do this because all you need to do is show the NFT, right? 01:24.480 --> 01:27.280 We don't need to touch, we don't need to touch your shirt. 01:27.280 --> 01:31.760 That could be kind of awkward, right? 01:31.760 --> 01:36.200 If you have the NFT, then you have the NFT for this in the same way that if you have 01:36.200 --> 01:38.560 a punk, you can show a punk. 01:38.560 --> 01:44.680 So if you have some type of augmented reality glasses, which are going to happen, right? 01:44.680 --> 01:57.280 And if people are somehow signing with their device, I guess their wallet, right? 01:57.280 --> 02:03.480 Their public addresses are wallet, then maybe you could do it that way, right? 02:03.480 --> 02:05.920 You could imagine happening about that. 02:05.920 --> 02:10.360 Yeah, I mean, I could definitely see that where you can showcase the collection that 02:10.360 --> 02:12.000 you want people to see, right? 02:12.000 --> 02:18.600 So if you go to a nightclub, maybe you probably showcase a different collection than if you 02:18.600 --> 02:22.200 were to go to get coffee at Starbucks, right? 02:22.200 --> 02:25.280 Yeah, really interesting. 02:25.280 --> 02:34.680 I mean, I can see how this could be appealing to obviously crypto native fashion companies 02:34.680 --> 02:40.400 like yours, but lifestyle or whatever the right word is, but how it could be interesting 02:40.400 --> 02:47.200 on the traditional providers who have a large problem with counterfeit, right? 02:47.200 --> 02:53.280 Yeah, I believe it was, I think, $80 billion last year and expected to grow. 02:53.280 --> 02:57.840 I think maybe double digits to share. 02:57.840 --> 03:03.680 What else are you seeing out there that you think is super interesting, challenging? 03:03.680 --> 03:10.760 What's the future of 9DCC? 03:10.760 --> 03:12.120 Where do we go next? 03:12.120 --> 03:16.880 You know, I think to me, the most compelling part of everything that we've done over the 03:16.880 --> 03:22.080 last six to seven months has been the gamification of IRL. 03:22.080 --> 03:29.200 And you don't want people coming up to you and randomly scanning your tag, but I think 03:29.200 --> 03:35.600 what we saw in our Basel was that people do enjoy that and people do like to connect, 03:35.600 --> 03:36.600 right? 03:36.600 --> 03:42.440 Because, and I noticed this really early on after the lockdowns ended, is that we were 03:42.440 --> 03:47.760 making all these connections online, but people want to connect in real life. 03:47.760 --> 03:53.120 And I can make an argument that probably the biggest utility of NFTs is connecting in real 03:53.120 --> 03:56.400 life as people make these friends in Discord. 03:56.400 --> 03:59.840 And then when they go to a conference, they want to meet up in real life and have a meet 03:59.840 --> 04:01.720 up for their communities. 04:01.720 --> 04:09.320 And so, and this was really born from the idea that I ran a POAP event in June of 2021, 04:09.320 --> 04:15.080 where I tweeted out, you know, show up to this place, and this is during BTC Miami. 04:15.080 --> 04:20.000 And I tweeted out, show up to this place and, you know, collect the POAP, the person wearing 04:20.000 --> 04:21.520 the G Money shirt. 04:21.520 --> 04:24.760 And about 80 people showed up over the course of three days. 04:24.760 --> 04:29.200 One of those days, there were two guys that met up that didn't have anything in common 04:29.200 --> 04:33.920 other than the fact that they both followed me and they both showed up to the same coffee 04:33.920 --> 04:37.080 shop at the same time to collect the POAP. 04:37.080 --> 04:43.320 They ended up starting a venture fund together and they ended up co-founding a few dows together. 04:43.320 --> 04:48.680 And I think about that a lot because these are two people that otherwise would not have 04:48.680 --> 04:52.320 met if it wasn't for me sending out that tweet. 04:52.320 --> 04:57.960 And as I think about, how can I then increase these interactions to happen at scale so that 04:57.960 --> 05:01.280 I don't need to be that center spoke for people to connect. 05:01.280 --> 05:05.920 But I can rather create this network where each individual person in that network could 05:05.920 --> 05:10.080 basically become their own node and create their network around them, which will grow 05:10.080 --> 05:11.760 the entire network. 05:11.760 --> 05:18.120 So what we ended up doing and for anybody that ever sees a 90cc shirt out in the wild, 05:18.120 --> 05:23.640 you can go up to that shirt and you can collect the POAP because each shirt distributes its 05:23.640 --> 05:25.040 own individual POAP. 05:25.040 --> 05:29.080 So it is proof that you met that physical shirt. 05:29.080 --> 05:37.360 And what we did with our Basel is we ran two contests concurrently where there was a leaderboard 05:37.360 --> 05:41.640 for the people, for the person that would collect the most POAPs from unique individual 05:41.640 --> 05:42.640 shirts. 05:42.640 --> 05:46.200 And there was also another leaderboard for the person that distributed the most POOPs. 05:46.200 --> 05:48.600 And this was run over the course of five days. 05:48.600 --> 05:53.200 We distributed close to 5,000 POAPs over the course of five days. 05:53.200 --> 05:57.880 And this was all people running around Miami making connections. 05:57.880 --> 06:03.160 I had a lot of people reach out to me saying how it was an amazing icebreaker, right? 06:03.160 --> 06:08.440 Because a lot of times, even if you see somebody wearing a shirt that you like, a lot of times 06:08.440 --> 06:12.320 the conversation is, hey, I like your shirt, thanks. 06:12.320 --> 06:14.280 And the conversation ends there. 06:14.280 --> 06:18.000 But I think as humans, we crave that connection, right? 06:18.000 --> 06:19.760 We want to connect with people. 06:19.760 --> 06:27.200 And so what collecting a POAP allows is a lot, it allows that icebreaker to happen in a very 06:27.200 --> 06:28.200 authentic way, right? 06:28.200 --> 06:31.760 Where it's like, oh, hey, like, you know, you see somebody wearing the shirt, you collect 06:31.760 --> 06:37.120 their POAP, maybe, you know, it takes, you know, five to 15 seconds to actually go through 06:37.120 --> 06:38.280 the process. 06:38.280 --> 06:41.520 And in that time, you start talking to the person and it's like, oh, where are you from? 06:41.520 --> 06:42.520 What do you do? 06:42.520 --> 06:43.520 What are you into? 06:43.520 --> 06:46.240 Maybe a new friendship forms, maybe a new business relationship forms. 06:46.240 --> 06:47.240 Who knows? 06:47.240 --> 06:48.600 The possibilities are endless. 06:48.600 --> 06:53.240 But I do think that like by being able to gamify these connections that are we seeing 06:53.240 --> 06:59.760 in Discord, in Twitter, like in a digital space and bringing that out into the real world, 06:59.760 --> 07:03.120 I think that that's where like the real secret sauce is. 07:03.120 --> 07:06.400 And that's what gets me the most excited about what we're doing. 07:06.400 --> 07:07.400 Okay. 07:07.400 --> 07:09.440 Very interesting. 07:09.440 --> 07:20.880 What are the things that we should have discussed about 9DCC or the challenges opportunity setup 07:20.880 --> 07:24.680 future that we haven't discussed yet, that we should cover? 07:24.680 --> 07:29.400 I think, you know, we, I think overall through the entire presentation, we've been discussing 07:29.400 --> 07:33.520 it, but I want to really lean into like the composability of it, right? 07:33.520 --> 07:38.480 Which is really like what makes crypto so powerful is composability, right? 07:38.480 --> 07:43.200 And everything that we've been talking about, and I think the hotel room example that you 07:43.200 --> 07:49.080 use is a great example of it is like when you can take, you know, non-fungible/ 07:49.080 --> 07:55.720 semi-fungible assets and make them as composable as possible, what, you know, how valuable does 07:55.720 --> 07:57.080 that become, right? 07:57.080 --> 08:01.400 And so I'll use the t-shirt says an example, but you can also technically use it against 08:01.400 --> 08:03.480 like hotel inventory, right? 08:03.480 --> 08:09.120 Of being able to then post that as collateral in an NFT lending platform and take out a 08:09.120 --> 08:10.120 loan against it. 08:10.120 --> 08:14.840 Like, I think I probably took out the first on-chain loan against a t-shirt about two 08:14.840 --> 08:17.280 months ago, where I posted as collateral. 08:17.280 --> 08:21.440 I had somebody that was willing to lend me money against it. 08:21.440 --> 08:28.920 And now people that own a 9DCC shirt can then post it as collateral and get a $125 loan 08:28.920 --> 08:32.520 almost instantaneously by posting as collateral. 08:32.520 --> 08:38.640 And I think that these value unlocks that start to happen in markets that are very immature 08:38.640 --> 08:41.240 that don't have access to this type of capital, right? 08:41.240 --> 08:45.000 Because what I'm describing is a margin loan against a stock. 08:45.000 --> 08:47.880 It is a mortgage against a piece of real estate. 08:47.880 --> 08:53.160 It's nothing that's very esoteric or complex in the traditional finance world, but you're 08:53.160 --> 08:58.000 going to open up these markets and give people access to this capital that otherwise might 08:58.000 --> 08:59.200 not have had it. 08:59.200 --> 09:03.080 And that all really comes from composability. 09:03.080 --> 09:06.560 Very interesting. 09:06.560 --> 09:09.800 Let's go see the other slides. 09:09.800 --> 09:13.640 There's some examples and I think one of them is your partner, so we can actually, I want 09:13.640 --> 09:15.360 to get your views on them. 09:15.360 --> 09:17.000 I think they're in some of the slides. 09:17.000 --> 09:24.640 So, Mattereum, this has been going on, they've been working on this for a while and it's 09:24.640 --> 09:30.740 not the case, but my understanding and we might next running of the course get the founder 09:30.740 --> 09:36.720 Vinay to talk to him about it. 09:36.720 --> 09:39.920 The general, I'm going to summarize it, it might be wrong. 09:39.920 --> 09:44.880 But like my general views they spend a lot of time thinking about the contractual aspects. 09:44.880 --> 09:52.720 I don't think they worry so much about the gamification, or there are mental levels, how 09:52.720 --> 10:02.640 make sure that the sales of these assets in ABCD jurisdictions are legally binding and 10:02.640 --> 10:09.520 have a legally binding contract that people can use. Do you have a different sense of 10:10.240 --> 10:15.280 how they think about it? I think that's the way they think about it. I spoke to Vinay 10:15.280 --> 10:22.000 I think almost two years ago at this point but from my understanding he was thinking about it 10:22.000 --> 10:30.320 at more of the contractual level and how you can maybe sell a piece of real estate on chain 10:30.320 --> 10:36.560 between a counterparty in let's say Europe and the United States and dealing with the laws 10:36.560 --> 10:40.960 and how that works. So I think he's thinking at a very high level in terms of that. 10:40.960 --> 10:46.240 Yeah we need to get him on in the spring and talk to him. He's very interesting. 10:47.520 --> 10:54.240 I follow him on Twitter he's very interesting so it'll be good to get his views. What's the next one 10:54.240 --> 11:00.560 VT? All right so 4k I think you should present the slide in 11:00.560 --> 11:08.320 Talisman 4k since you're an actual customer 4k. Yep I mean I love the product. I had 11:08.320 --> 11:16.320 I originally wanted to make create a centralized custodian back in I think it was December of 2020 11:16.880 --> 11:24.080 where I remember when Nifty Gateway did the the beeble drop and there was I think it was like 11:24.080 --> 11:28.480 an eight-week trading window where you can trade the digital asset and then there was like a six-week 11:28.480 --> 11:33.920 claim window where you can claim the physical the physical piece that came with the drop. 11:33.920 --> 11:38.960 And I remember reaching out to somebody on the customer support staff I'm like well 11:39.440 --> 11:45.040 you're gonna you're gonna crush the trading like one-step physical window is done because 11:46.080 --> 11:50.240 I know there's gonna be more value I think long-term in keeping the digital and the physical 11:50.240 --> 11:56.160 component combined. I think we saw a lot of people over the last like you know two years really 11:56.160 --> 12:01.200 disconnect that because people didn't necessarily care about the physical component but I do think 12:01.200 --> 12:06.160 long-term people are gonna want both of those together. So I really early on I was like there's 12:06.160 --> 12:12.400 going to be a need for this centralized custodian much the same way that free ports exist in that 12:12.400 --> 12:18.240 yeah I'm gonna I'm in a whole this physical asset someplace because I don't need to take possession 12:18.240 --> 12:25.040 of it but I do want to have the access to a 24/7 global marketplace and at the time 12:25.840 --> 12:30.800 like I spoke to a few lawyers and nobody had any idea what an NFT was and when I explained the 12:30.800 --> 12:38.240 contract it really was I feel they they didn't I think they didn't totally understand it and I 12:38.240 --> 12:42.880 spoke to a few people and it seemed like there would be enough legal risk that I didn't necessarily 12:42.880 --> 12:49.680 want to do it as a US citizen living in US jurisdiction but I said I will like if I find the 12:49.680 --> 12:55.520 founder that wants to do this this is like I think this would be a massive business I was introduced 12:55.520 --> 13:03.680 to to Richard maybe like maybe a year ago or yeah maybe a year ago a year and a half ago and I 13:03.680 --> 13:09.200 mean I loved it obviously because I had that idea organically myself as well and I saw that he was 13:09.200 --> 13:14.640 already doing it and so you know we spent a lot of time talking and what I think is really interesting 13:14.640 --> 13:20.800 and I had him on my podcast a few months ago was being able to bring like a lot of different 13:20.800 --> 13:25.920 um ask real-world assets on chain like he even said like the possibility of bringing like 13:26.480 --> 13:31.840 like the caretaking of an animal on chain and I think he has to figure out the logistics of that 13:31.840 --> 13:36.880 but I'm like ultimately the world where it's like you know like um those like you know take you 13:36.880 --> 13:42.320 know pay a dollar a day to like feed like a monkey or something like you could technically run 13:42.320 --> 13:49.040 something like that off the 4k protocol which I think becomes like very interesting um and like 13:49.040 --> 13:54.240 I don't know the legality of the complexities of that but at the very least right is like you can 13:54.240 --> 13:59.360 take you know something like a Rolex watch something like I have some sneakers that are custody there 13:59.360 --> 14:05.280 I have 90 cc shirts that are custody there but then also by building out on the protocol layer 14:05.280 --> 14:11.360 then other people can create also their own storage on top of that right so it's like if I have an 14:11.360 --> 14:19.680 empty warehouse here in my backyard I can then take custody and verify that let's say that Rolex 14:19.680 --> 14:25.600 is real and that it's stored in a location in a safe location uh and be part of that 4k network 14:26.320 --> 14:31.280 that ultimately starts originally with their protocol but then builds out globally and like 14:31.280 --> 14:36.160 what does that mean for the implications is that network builds out so I I think that there's like 14:36.160 --> 14:41.520 a lot of really cool stuff that that can be done with this right and what I'm I'm really interested 14:41.520 --> 14:47.200 about on the uh on the composability layer is now being able to take that real world asset 14:48.160 --> 14:52.640 and then use it as collateral for other things right and I think this is where 14:53.200 --> 14:59.280 when you have that zero to one moment where I think it's going to be very difficult there's 14:59.280 --> 15:05.040 going to be a harder time bringing real estate on chain then there will be bringing watches on 15:05.040 --> 15:12.080 chain or sneakers on chain because financing mechanisms for those two industries that I just 15:12.080 --> 15:19.520 said don't exist on a global scale yet, whereas you know getting a mortgage for real estate is like 15:19.520 --> 15:25.040 it's a massively global business that already has its processes flow and place and it already has 15:25.040 --> 15:29.760 you know its industry and its people with vested interests whereas if you're able to take something 15:29.760 --> 15:36.240 from zero to one and provide capital and provide access to capital and financing that a market 15:36.240 --> 15:40.880 might not already have I think you're going to see faster adoption than you will you know I 15:40.880 --> 15:46.320 firmly believe real estate comes on chain I just think it will take much longer because there's 15:46.320 --> 15:55.280 already a mature industry around it. Makes perfect sense what's the next let's go to the next slide 15:55.280 --> 16:07.120 do you know about corn lord I do I'm I angel invested into it they're very similar to 4k right they do 16:07.120 --> 16:14.480 physical custody of assets and issue you in nft they've teamed up with with brinks as their 16:14.480 --> 16:21.600 vaulting partner so you know they've had a few drops I believe their first drops might have been 16:21.600 --> 16:29.680 on polygon I'm not exactly sure I think they were on on an L2 to start but I'm not sure where they're 16:29.680 --> 16:42.640 they're currently issuing their nft's okay and what do we have next and then. Americana I think 16:42.640 --> 16:50.640 it's trying to be the open sea for physically backed nft's right is that are you are you very familiar 16:50.640 --> 16:58.640 with them I'm not very familiar with them I know that they're chipping products and creating I think 16:58.640 --> 17:03.600 a marketplace for those products I haven't I haven't had the opportunity to chat with their team 17:03.600 --> 17:14.320 very closely just like you know in passing at you know at like a cocktail hour or something. 17:16.480 --> 17:23.120 Okay, do we have anything else let's see do you want to take on the artifact sneakers I think I 17:23.120 --> 17:27.840 know how they work but you brought you might you probably pay more attention to the details 17:27.840 --> 17:34.000 yeah I mean listen artifact I think they've been trailblazers in the category right and you know 17:34.000 --> 17:39.280 I think they they got acquired by Nike because of you know all the cool things that they were doing 17:39.280 --> 17:45.680 I think that you know all the things that they've done have been like really pushing boundaries and 17:45.680 --> 17:51.840 I you know I think most people know what they do and you know they've created these digital 17:51.840 --> 17:57.360 components and then also for the most part usually have these forging windows where you can then 17:57.360 --> 18:02.000 claim physical product at which point they fulfill that product and then send it out 18:02.960 --> 18:07.840 and I believe, it's interesting to watch these different drop mechanics and you know, I know this 18:07.840 --> 18:14.080 as well because I'm going through it with the stuff that I'm doing at 90cc whereas I you know I 18:14.080 --> 18:19.760 don't know if we have found out like the best drop mechanics just yet so I think you're gonna see a 18:19.760 --> 18:26.240 lot of playing around, with how drops work with how you know how do you fulfill physical product 18:26.240 --> 18:31.120 right because especially when it comes to something like clothes or sneakers, where everyone wears a 18:31.120 --> 18:39.280 different size, you can't necessarily pre-sell sizing but you know because then you fragment 18:39.280 --> 18:43.920 the market a little too much right and it's like what you know what is that right balance between 18:43.920 --> 18:48.960 liquidity and the right balance between getting the product out there and and time frames but 18:48.960 --> 18:54.000 you know I think artifact has has done an amazing job for the physical digital space 18:54.000 --> 18:58.720 over the last two years and you know they're they're always going to be a team to watch. 19:00.560 --> 19:05.440 And you know for the audience I think most people know that they're now owned by Nike right and so 19:06.400 --> 19:14.000 I view them not just as an interesting organization but my guess is this is like the 19:14.880 --> 19:22.320 R&D lab for these ideas in Nike in general and the ones that are successful will probably see 19:22.320 --> 19:30.000 rolled out at Nike scale which is just an absolutely gigantic scale right like so 19:31.840 --> 19:37.280 yeah and I look at this and I think when you want to talk about you know mass adoption 19:37.280 --> 19:42.880 and consumer adoption like you know when you have brands like Nike and Adidas coming into the space 19:42.880 --> 19:48.720 like you know I mean it's almost inevitable that you know you at some point soon you will be getting 19:48.720 --> 19:53.680 adoption because these are brands that drive culture right these are brands that you know 19:53.680 --> 19:58.080 probably you know Nike's probably one of the coolest brands on the planet right and so 19:58.080 --> 20:04.720 whatever it is that they do and to your point is I I would take a strong guess that artifact is 20:04.720 --> 20:10.800 almost like their web 3 R&D team and when things work within artifact then they start scaling that 20:10.800 --> 20:15.040 across their organization and that's when you're going to start seeing a lot of people start to 20:15.040 --> 20:22.240 get onboarded into the space you had actually helped bring Adidas into the space right 20:22.960 --> 20:28.880 yep I partnered with them board apes and punk's comic for their for their initial drop 20:31.040 --> 20:37.120 and how did you and I'm curious for me I don't know procedural perspective you're 20:37.120 --> 20:45.680 sitting there you want some NFTs you think you think big companies should do this but I assume 20:45.680 --> 20:53.040 these big companies don't didn't then know really much about NFTs how did you make that happen 20:54.000 --> 21:01.760 um so you know I got randomly DM'd by somebody on their team who told me you know he loved what 21:01.760 --> 21:09.200 I was doing he worked at Adidas on their web 3 on their web 3 team and he wanted to chat now I had 21:09.200 --> 21:13.920 no idea if he really worked at Adidas or not but I figured you know what's a 20 minute phone call 21:13.920 --> 21:19.360 like you know what if he really does work at Adidas it turned out he did and you know we ended up 21:19.360 --> 21:24.880 having these like amazing conversations because because my thesis and my thought process behind 21:24.880 --> 21:31.200 you know working with any large organization is that I want them to onboard onto crypto rails 21:31.200 --> 21:36.320 onto decentralized rails right because at some point right and this is almost like the world we 21:36.320 --> 21:43.360 live in now is you know your your conglomerates that exist in the legacy world today will try to 21:43.360 --> 21:48.080 you know do something that is let's say web 3 but not entirely web 3 you'll be like let's say within 21:48.080 --> 21:54.320 their their wall garden of an ecosystem and they'll call it web 3 you'll be let's say a digital 21:54.320 --> 21:59.520 collectible but there won't be true ownership there and so you know the more of these brands that we 21:59.520 --> 22:05.120 can build on truly decentralized rails then the better it is for all of us as consumers right 22:05.120 --> 22:10.560 like when you think about when you see all these movies about these dystopian futures of what that 22:10.560 --> 22:16.640 world looks like usually it's where there's you know one one person or a small council of people 22:16.640 --> 22:22.480 deciding and making decisions for all of humanity and people you know don't have any say in what they 22:22.480 --> 22:29.360 can do with their assets right and the more digital our lives become then the more that these high 22:29.360 --> 22:35.840 councils can control what it is and and what it is and what we do with with our assets and so that's 22:35.840 --> 22:41.840 why for me like building on Ethereum building on you know EVM compatible chains is something that 22:41.840 --> 22:47.680 I firmly believe in because there is you know asset ownership there where okay maybe if you 22:47.680 --> 22:52.880 violate the terms of service you can't play in that world but the assets you own are still yours 22:52.880 --> 22:59.120 right there's there's always that story that people say of you know how I think Vitalik was banned 22:59.120 --> 23:03.520 from World of Warcraft and that was like part of his reasoning for creating Ethereum right where 23:03.520 --> 23:10.880 he lost you know he found like a bug in the system was able to take advantage of it but then lost his 23:10.880 --> 23:16.400 account and lost all of his work because of it when and and that's like well I should have ownership 23:16.400 --> 23:22.640 over my property because I paid for it right like you know how valuable would it be to a gamer that 23:22.640 --> 23:27.920 you know let's say spent a thousand dollars on Fortnite the size they don't want to play Fortnite anymore 23:27.920 --> 23:32.160 right instead of just having a thousand dollars of sunk you know skin cost that they can never get 23:32.160 --> 23:36.720 back if they can get some sort of return on that saying like okay somebody else wants to buy these 23:36.720 --> 23:43.840 I don't want to own them and I think that you know the more that we can teach these brands to build 23:43.840 --> 23:49.440 on these truly decentralized rails I think the better it will be for society because then that 23:49.440 --> 23:55.280 leads to more adoption on those decentralized rails which leads to more ownership over your 23:55.280 --> 24:04.080 personal property in the future I couldn't agree with you more this is I think where we are fully 24:04.080 --> 24:11.120 aligned I think you and I focus on different things but the general objective is the same that the 24:11.120 --> 24:17.120 more we can get people to use standardized public interoperable rails the better the world will be 24:17.120 --> 24:28.000 in the long run okay let's shift gears and take some questions for the from the audience and I'll 24:28.000 --> 24:40.880 go vp I'll go into the discord so that I can find the questions as they're being asked and give me a 24:40.880 --> 24:48.240 second I will see what what the people want to know 24:53.840 --> 24:59.920 all right privacy concerned walking around with a scalable NFC could lead to dioxing or even 24:59.920 --> 25:06.000 tracking how do we protect privacy with NFC readable wearables risks of document tracking and 25:06.000 --> 25:12.480 it's a good question well how do you think about this um so with regards to tracking we don't 25:12.480 --> 25:20.480 track any data right the NFC chips are like not powered right so that so there's no like tracking 25:20.480 --> 25:26.640 of personal data all you do is basically like you can scan you know where that shirt is at one 25:26.640 --> 25:33.280 point in time right and you know this is something I've thought long about as well with you know and 25:33.280 --> 25:39.760 I think we're probably going to be moving towards a world of zk right where you can uh at test that 25:39.760 --> 25:44.720 somebody was somewhere without that person necessarily having to sew things on blockchain I just don't 25:44.720 --> 25:50.880 think that the tech is there just yet but I do think long term you know people will be able to 25:50.880 --> 25:56.400 turn on or turn off like you know privacy concerns and certain stuff like yeah I don't want you know 25:56.400 --> 26:03.680 let's say um people that collect my po-op to kind of know where I am at a given point in time if let's 26:03.680 --> 26:09.040 say I'm at a party at a specific event right and this already exists with let's say when people scan 26:09.040 --> 26:16.080 po-ops uh per se is like you scan in uh you collect the po-op for that event um you have to be there 26:16.080 --> 26:21.680 to collect that po-op I think over time we'll probably see a move towards whether it's zk or 26:21.680 --> 26:28.880 maybe not everything is stored on chain or you have the opportunity to kind of um send that po-op 26:28.880 --> 26:33.920 like after the fact so you don't necessarily know who's there in real time um I think that these 26:33.920 --> 26:38.400 are all concerns I've definitely thought about it I just I feel like at the at this point in time 26:38.400 --> 26:43.760 we're like in the proof of concept phase that we can then iterate on and tackle those privacy 26:43.760 --> 26:49.600 concerns but I I definitely you know as somebody you know as pretty much everybody on the planet 26:49.600 --> 26:54.720 is probably tracked through their phone uh realizing how important that data is and making sure that 26:55.280 --> 27:00.160 you have the trust you know you have our trust that you know we're not collecting you know real 27:00.160 --> 27:05.200 time data on where you are uh in order to you know geotarget or whatever have you 27:06.800 --> 27:13.040 right and I don't know if the question was meant that you attract them could someone I don't know 27:13.040 --> 27:22.160 how the tech works could someone use a remote reader to scan someone's shirt at a distance 27:23.440 --> 27:29.920 no I I don't like because because of the like the the like the communication field for that is 27:29.920 --> 27:35.920 solo like you have to you have to put your phone like very close uh to the actual chip in order 27:35.920 --> 27:40.720 to get because again there's no power in the chip so it's kind of powered by the device that 27:40.720 --> 27:47.840 scans it so the device has to be close to kind of like utilize it sorry that's the the near field 27:47.840 --> 27:55.360 and NFC right like so I if I were wearing the shirt and someone wanted to scan my NFC chip 27:55.360 --> 28:01.280 I'd notice because they'd be right next to me yeah they they'd be rubbing their phone up against your 28:01.280 --> 28:10.160 shirt could be awkward it could be um okay here's the question how many people put their shirts 28:10.160 --> 28:15.040 in storage I guess your initial drop how many people said give me this t-shirt I'm wearing it 28:15.040 --> 28:23.280 down in Miami and how many have kept it in the vault for future results yep so um from the initial 28:23.280 --> 28:29.520 drop I think we're at a little bit above 40% of people that took delivery of the shirt to wear it 28:30.320 --> 28:39.600 and from the second drop I think we're at around 50% um you know we we did about 50% um live in Miami 28:39.600 --> 28:44.720 of the mint because we really wanted to showcase the you know the actual generative manufacturing 28:44.720 --> 28:50.400 process live on the ground and then uh you know I think the interesting thing about the second drop 28:50.400 --> 28:56.400 is it's probably more of a collectible as well it's like it's an affordable chromisquiggle uh 28:56.400 --> 29:02.080 interestingly enough there was a father son uh his son had always wanted a chromisquiggle but 29:02.080 --> 29:07.120 they were priced out of it um because they found out about swiggles too late he took his son out of 29:07.120 --> 29:13.440 school for a day and they flew down together had this experience where he minted a squiggle a shirt 29:13.440 --> 29:19.760 as a squiggle variant and now that like his his son's uh version of a squiggle so I think that like 29:19.760 --> 29:24.880 wow the interesting thing is going to be uh you know seeing that like collectibility play into 29:24.880 --> 29:29.680 things as well because there you know this one this is a rift right so this one is rarer than than a 29:29.680 --> 29:38.400 floor next question are there companies out there working to build platforms specifically 29:38.400 --> 29:43.840 the designs to enable this concept of moving from databases to markets across industries 29:43.840 --> 29:49.360 I'm aware of teams doing this individually fly fishing restaurants links down and golf 29:49.360 --> 29:54.800 but is anyone building out the tooling to do it across industries I have answers but let me hear 29:54.800 --> 30:01.360 your answer but I'll comment on this I don't know anybody that's trying to build a platform like 30:01.360 --> 30:07.120 this at scale I think even as you were presenting it I feel like it becomes very industry specific 30:07.120 --> 30:12.480 because I think some of the hardest stuff is to get the buy-in right like I think you have to be 30:12.480 --> 30:20.800 in the travel industry and very high up to be able to convince like you know uh booking.com 30:20.800 --> 30:27.760 Expedia and all these companies to come into this same protocol so I think it becomes very 30:27.760 --> 30:33.680 industry specific at least for the foreseeable future but I but maybe I'm wrong I'd love to hear 30:33.680 --> 30:45.520 what you think 6529 yeah um I guess my super abstract view of this is that if the outcome 30:45.520 --> 30:54.800 um is anyway NFTs NFTs are the platform right like the whole point generally 30:57.120 --> 31:04.720 network type protocols whether it's TCP IP or SMTP or Bitcoin right FTS works specifically 31:04.720 --> 31:10.160 because you don't have to get everyone to agree to do something together right like the social 31:10.160 --> 31:14.720 coordination costs are really high because you're just oh I want to do my platforms I was all 31:14.720 --> 31:18.960 know I have a better idea I'll do it this way than someone else who I have I have access to the 31:18.960 --> 31:25.920 market in France and I'm going to do it this other way and so and I think a lot of these are going 31:25.920 --> 31:33.040 to need industry specific tooling right the solution for how it works on restaurants is going to be 31:33.040 --> 31:39.120 different than golf courses which is also going to be different than apartments which will also 31:39.120 --> 31:47.280 be different than fashion and so for me I don't know I don't know what a generic tooling would look 31:47.280 --> 31:53.920 like other than the generic tooling being NFTs and so like if people do whatever they're going to do 31:53.920 --> 32:04.800 on their individual workflow but in the end um people can uh represent their claims when NFT 32:04.800 --> 32:13.760 then you get to pick up as the issuer all of the infrastructure that is being built generically 32:13.760 --> 32:19.520 for NFTs right like you don't have to build a marketplace there's going to be many marketplaces 32:19.520 --> 32:25.760 right you don't have to build a lending platform you don't have to build the gallery to display 32:25.760 --> 32:32.160 them right because people are going to be building these things for NFTs as a whole and if we get 32:32.160 --> 32:41.360 like a couple of years in the future another maybe order of magnitude worth of adoption in 32:41.360 --> 32:46.480 people and applications I think it's over right like then the incentives you're not going to have 32:46.480 --> 32:54.080 to like tell companies things about like decentralization it will just be obvious that if they issue 32:54.080 --> 33:01.760 their claim as an NFT it is better for them than trying to build an end-to-end infrastructure by 33:01.760 --> 33:07.440 themselves because they'll never keep up with literally the whole internet building infrastructure 33:07.440 --> 33:17.040 for brc721s and 1155s or whatever the the variations will be on other blockchains right so I think 33:17.040 --> 33:27.520 that's where I come out of this one the next question is for me um I will laugh about this one 33:27.520 --> 33:33.440 can we use NFTs as proof of knowledge passing courses college courses etc really yes there 33:33.440 --> 33:36.400 if you pass the exam with other those courses you're going to get an NFT absolutely 33:38.320 --> 33:46.320 you are in specifically the, um, the service that we'll use NFT as a proof of knowledge 33:47.440 --> 33:54.000 okay i think i have a follow up on that for you um when when you issue those NFTs will they be 33:54.000 --> 34:01.600 sold out so this is a great question and I have discussed this in great detail with the unit team 34:02.960 --> 34:14.080 and that it all start with a conclusion they will not be sold out and I'll tell you why because 34:15.200 --> 34:20.720 that was their first question maybe sold out if I have an educational credential that I'm 34:20.720 --> 34:30.480 going to keep for years decades right well the odds that my wallet is not going to be different 34:30.480 --> 34:39.760 20 years from now is literally zero right I've gone through three wallets or ready since I started 34:40.400 --> 34:46.240 with NFTs and looking maybe me as well I have I have my nuisance wallet my safe vault maybe 34:46.240 --> 34:52.000 won't change but the odds that the average person in this class is not going to change their wallet 34:53.200 --> 34:59.920 zero zero like people might have started with a hot wall then maybe they might go to a treasure 34:59.920 --> 35:04.720 maybe they'll go to some social recovery wall maybe they'll later go to a multi-sick wallet I mean 35:05.920 --> 35:09.760 and this I think all these things are going to happen in the next 18 months not in the next like 35:09.760 --> 35:18.720 18 years right so a model where we say oh it's so bound because a model where people are going to 35:18.720 --> 35:24.080 get stuck needing to move them and then what that's going to be is someone is going to have to come 35:24.080 --> 35:32.400 to UNIC and say move it to this new wallet and I need to somehow explain to you that I'm the same 35:32.400 --> 35:50.160 person and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. I believe it is operationally impossible right and for this to exist over decades right so I start with I don't think the soulbound model generally works I'm not 35:50.160 --> 35:52.360 actually quite bearish on the Soulbound model. 35:52.360 --> 35:54.840 I think it needs to be solved with other ways. 35:54.840 --> 35:57.720 And it's like, oh, do the other ways are problems? 35:57.720 --> 35:58.520 Yes. 35:58.520 --> 36:00.240 It's just the Soulbound one. 36:01.340 --> 36:04.320 Effectively, the only way you solve the Soulbound 36:04.320 --> 36:06.360 is to just make it centralized. 36:06.360 --> 36:08.840 But if you make it centralized, 36:08.840 --> 36:11.160 then Munich might as well just keep it in their database 36:11.160 --> 36:14.840 of people who have completed the course, right? 36:14.840 --> 36:16.160 Then what's the difference? 36:16.160 --> 36:17.720 You can always call up Munich and say, 36:17.720 --> 36:19.280 hey, did I complete this course, right? 36:19.280 --> 36:21.000 So that's back in one. 36:21.000 --> 36:24.960 And then it's interesting to see what Munich 36:24.960 --> 36:27.960 and other academic institutions did in the past. 36:28.960 --> 36:30.960 So I don't know if you ever discussed this on this course, 36:30.960 --> 36:33.520 one of their, they had, I think, 36:33.520 --> 36:36.000 where the first issue to plume was on the blockchain 36:36.000 --> 36:38.840 as on the Bitcoin blockchain. 36:38.840 --> 36:40.920 Pretty long before and if these. 36:40.920 --> 36:43.720 And their solutions were interesting 36:43.720 --> 36:48.320 because it is, it was a hash into the Bitcoin blockchain 36:48.320 --> 36:49.920 and you got a PDF and those are merciful 36:49.920 --> 36:52.800 for all these things that we're using now 36:52.800 --> 36:55.000 for allow us to what have you. 36:55.000 --> 36:58.440 And you could check if the hash of your PDF 37:01.000 --> 37:03.880 was in that transaction, right? 37:03.880 --> 37:04.720 So there it was interesting 37:04.720 --> 37:06.320 because it wasn't even in your wallet at all, right? 37:06.320 --> 37:07.760 You just have a PDF. 37:07.760 --> 37:11.000 And that PDF you could check if it was, 37:11.000 --> 37:12.360 it's like the end of chip, right? 37:12.360 --> 37:15.400 Like you can say I have this off chain good, 37:15.400 --> 37:17.160 but I can tell you if it exists 37:17.160 --> 37:18.880 on chain transaction. 37:18.880 --> 37:23.480 So that's one model, it's portable with the user, right? 37:23.480 --> 37:25.680 So that's one interesting model. 37:25.680 --> 37:27.640 Now on NFTs, 37:31.520 --> 37:34.280 and I think what's gonna happen on this course, 37:35.240 --> 37:39.240 though George and I haven't finalized it, 37:39.240 --> 37:40.920 well, there's a couple of things you can do. 37:40.920 --> 37:44.120 First of all, we're gonna let people 37:44.120 --> 37:48.280 if they choose put their name on it, right? 37:48.280 --> 37:49.680 If they put their name on it, 37:50.880 --> 37:55.880 they have to pick one person that it is, right? 37:56.520 --> 37:58.160 So if you want to say, 37:58.160 --> 38:01.280 if I say I'm Mike Smith, I completed this course, 38:02.440 --> 38:04.560 selling my chip, I was like, 38:04.560 --> 38:06.680 oh, what if they sell their credentials, right? 38:06.680 --> 38:09.200 Well, if my credentials are Mike Smith, 38:09.200 --> 38:13.960 and I sell them to Sally, 38:13.960 --> 38:16.040 what good is it gonna do Sally? 38:16.040 --> 38:19.320 Right, like I'd have to find another Mike Smith. 38:19.320 --> 38:20.840 And I was like, well, I don't wanna do that, 38:20.840 --> 38:23.840 I wanna put my ETH address. 38:23.840 --> 38:26.560 Okay, that's fine. 38:26.560 --> 38:28.400 You can put 6529.ETH. 38:29.440 --> 38:33.200 But then it's really only relevant to whoever 38:33.200 --> 38:38.200 has built up reputation as 6529.ETH, right? 38:38.200 --> 38:41.760 And it's not generically sellable, right? 38:41.760 --> 38:43.520 I mean, why is that gonna be useful? 38:43.520 --> 38:44.960 What'll be useful to you? 38:44.960 --> 38:46.720 If you said, like, hey, look, 38:46.720 --> 38:49.520 I completed the course, here's my certificate. 38:49.520 --> 38:51.240 And on the certificate on the NFT, 38:51.240 --> 38:53.120 it says 6529.ETH. 38:53.120 --> 38:56.600 I was like, wait, that's not you, right? 38:56.600 --> 38:57.440 Is it all well? 38:58.480 --> 38:59.480 What if, 39:01.960 --> 39:03.120 or what if someone takes the course 39:03.120 --> 39:04.440 in someone else's name? 39:05.560 --> 39:07.160 Well, sure, that's a risk, 39:07.160 --> 39:09.280 but that's not solved by sold-bound token. 39:09.280 --> 39:11.640 That's solved by KYC, right? 39:12.600 --> 39:13.960 And so then there's an interesting question. 39:13.960 --> 39:16.640 Do you want to, you know, obviously for, 39:18.280 --> 39:19.960 I understand if you complete, 39:19.960 --> 39:22.880 go on from this course and do the degree program, 39:22.880 --> 39:24.720 you will effectively get KYC 39:24.720 --> 39:26.480 because the University want transcripts 39:26.480 --> 39:28.120 and all these other things and like, 39:28.120 --> 39:30.120 you're, I don't know, driver's license passport, 39:30.120 --> 39:30.960 I don't know what they'll need, 39:30.960 --> 39:33.280 but like, you don't get KYC, right? 39:33.280 --> 39:34.960 Now for a course like this, 39:34.960 --> 39:38.440 where someone is going to show their credential 39:39.720 --> 39:41.520 in their wallet, right? 39:43.000 --> 39:45.880 To me, the right answer, 39:45.880 --> 39:47.200 they're in the right balance 39:47.200 --> 39:50.720 between decentralization and practicality 39:51.640 --> 39:53.720 is that it's not sold-bound, 39:53.720 --> 39:58.720 that people can either put a physical name on it, 39:59.640 --> 40:02.960 or they can put an enist name on it, 40:02.960 --> 40:05.640 and then they can move it from place to place, 40:05.640 --> 40:06.760 and you know, their physical name 40:06.760 --> 40:08.640 is going to stay with them the rest of your life, 40:08.640 --> 40:12.520 presumably, and your enist can actually transport 40:12.520 --> 40:15.680 across wallets, right? 40:15.680 --> 40:20.600 I might change, I'm using some model treasure 40:20.600 --> 40:23.760 at 6.529.eth, right? 40:23.760 --> 40:25.160 Do I think in 20 years, 40:25.160 --> 40:26.920 the same treasure is going to be working now, 40:26.920 --> 40:28.080 I'm pretty sure it won't be, right? 40:28.080 --> 40:30.640 I'm pretty sure we're using something else, 40:30.640 --> 40:33.960 but I can certainly 6.529.eth, right? 40:33.960 --> 40:37.600 And if I had a certificate that was issued and signed 40:37.600 --> 40:42.960 by 6.529.eth, okay, what differences it make 40:42.960 --> 40:45.240 if it's in the difference of theorematics? 40:45.240 --> 40:47.120 So, that's how we're thinking about it. 40:47.120 --> 40:50.920 I think we'll be making some decisions soon, 40:50.920 --> 40:54.080 and we'll probably like, tweet about it 40:54.080 --> 40:56.440 and what the trade-offs are, 40:56.440 --> 41:01.520 but I just think you have to assume that the soulbound token 41:01.520 --> 41:05.000 concept is effectively for this purpose, 41:05.000 --> 41:09.320 unworkable, or indistinguishable with being centralized, 41:09.320 --> 41:12.480 and then see how you work out those solutions. 41:12.480 --> 41:14.720 Yeah, and I tend to agree with that. 41:14.720 --> 41:16.400 I've been thinking a lot about it, right? 41:16.400 --> 41:18.760 Where it's like, it's almost like, 41:18.760 --> 41:20.840 effectively you're creating like an account, right? 41:20.840 --> 41:23.160 And then each wallet is almost like a sub account 41:23.160 --> 41:24.760 associated with that account. 41:24.760 --> 41:27.360 And to your point is like, you don't know, 41:27.360 --> 41:29.240 you know, you don't know if you're going to use your wallet 41:29.240 --> 41:31.120 for the rest of your life, probably not, right? 41:31.120 --> 41:33.000 Because of the nature of technology. 41:33.000 --> 41:36.480 So you need to have that ability to self-transfer things. 41:36.480 --> 41:37.960 So that makes sense to me. 41:37.960 --> 41:40.440 I think that that's probably, and I think delegate cash 41:40.440 --> 41:43.040 is probably one of those examples, right? 41:43.040 --> 41:46.320 Of like almost creating like a user account, 41:46.320 --> 41:48.480 and then you have all these sub accounts, 41:48.480 --> 41:51.080 and you can then sexualize risk, right? 41:51.080 --> 41:54.200 From a different perspective, but I do think that like, 41:54.200 --> 41:55.840 these rules apply to that as well. 41:56.840 --> 41:59.520 Yeah, delegate cash fixes another problem, 41:59.520 --> 42:02.160 which is an all the delegation solutions, 42:02.160 --> 42:05.240 which is not minting from your cold wallet, right? 42:05.240 --> 42:07.880 But I think for this problem of which, 42:07.880 --> 42:09.480 the other people, the reason people always ask 42:09.480 --> 42:11.000 it like is it so modern on is, 42:11.000 --> 42:12.840 but what if someone else gets the certifications 42:12.840 --> 42:15.080 of the person at the course, right? 42:15.080 --> 42:17.440 But I think the answer to that is, 42:17.440 --> 42:19.800 you can put a name on it, but your name can also 42:19.800 --> 42:22.200 be a real name or it can be an ENS. 42:22.200 --> 42:27.200 And the ENS abstracts away, 42:27.920 --> 42:31.840 not just a hot wallet, it can abstract away your name wall. 42:31.840 --> 42:33.560 No, right? 42:33.560 --> 42:35.520 Now, let's say someone's self, 42:35.520 --> 42:39.080 let's say I sell my whole digital identity, okay, fine, 42:39.080 --> 42:42.200 but like, honestly, I'm gonna sell my whole digital identity. 42:42.200 --> 42:45.440 I'm not gonna do it because of a certificate 42:45.440 --> 42:46.640 from a MOOC course, right? 42:46.640 --> 42:51.640 I mean, like there's bigger issues at play there than this, right? 42:53.120 --> 42:55.880 And it's putting the card, 42:55.880 --> 42:58.520 if tomorrow you turn into six times a night, 42:58.520 --> 43:00.320 I think it's okay, fine, but like, 43:00.320 --> 43:03.040 I don't think the real issue is that you'll also 43:03.040 --> 43:04.200 get my MOOC certificate. 43:07.120 --> 43:08.320 Yeah, makes total sense. 43:11.680 --> 43:14.760 Okay, I think this was a great session. 43:14.760 --> 43:17.440 I think we've ran basically, 43:17.440 --> 43:18.880 we try to keep them an hour and a half, 43:18.880 --> 43:21.320 maximum two, we're right on time. 43:21.320 --> 43:23.680 I want to thank you so much for coming and joining. 43:23.680 --> 43:26.200 We very much appreciate you taking the time. 43:26.200 --> 43:29.320 It is great to learn from practitioners in the field. 43:30.760 --> 43:34.120 We now have, this is for the members, 43:34.120 --> 43:38.120 we now have our minting ton of T-word for faster, 43:38.120 --> 43:40.320 so this will mint us in an FTE, I think soon, 43:40.320 --> 43:41.720 maybe by next week we'll have the site 43:41.720 --> 43:46.440 where students in the course can mint NFT 43:46.440 --> 43:48.680 of any of these sessions and keep them seeing them, 43:48.680 --> 43:50.640 or just review them online 43:50.640 --> 43:53.880 or we need to get them into the campus as well. 43:53.880 --> 43:57.760 And it will be there as a resource going forward. 43:57.760 --> 44:00.680 So it's not just the core certificate 44:00.680 --> 44:02.040 that's going to be NFT, 44:02.040 --> 44:04.520 each piece of course material is also NFT, 44:04.520 --> 44:06.240 including this session. 44:06.240 --> 44:12.160 And so the people can benefit from it over time. 44:12.160 --> 44:13.840 All right, well, thank you. 44:13.840 --> 44:42.480 And I think we can wrap this up.